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magpie patrick

End on junctions (and stop locks!)

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Just idle thoughts really...

 

I was eyeing up a copy of "The Warwick Canals" and explaining to one of the de-facto God-sons how you can normally tell which canal was older by the junction, as the new canal not make sense without the older, but the reverse would not be true (we need a new generation of canal enthusiasts - I'm doing my bit!). The Warwick and Napton joins the Warwick and Birmingham a few hundred yards from the end of the latter, so the W&B must have been conceived first. There is a logic, any sensible design of canal will terminate in a basin, and making the junction in the basin is messy and disruptive to wharfage etc, the Thames and Severn left the Stroudwater just short of the (now vanished) terminal basin.

 

There are also topographical reasons, as the older canal had reached it's terminus, it mattered not of there was a precipice descending or cliff ascending from the end, but it mattered for the newer canal, so joining at the very end may not be best in terms of levels. (Jj's eyes were glazing over by this point) - then he asked if any canals DO join end on? and how did they deal with these issues then?

 

The only one I could think of is in Leigh, and I don't know the answer! Was there a now vanished terminal basin? Were the canals planned as a single unit from Worsley to Wigan and it was just convenient to join up there? Are there other locations where this happened? 

 

Help! 

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Preston Brook T&M and Bridgewater. Vaying sections of the Birmingham and Fazeley and Coventry between Fazeley and Fradley.

  • Greenie 1

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BCN and Worcester & Birmingham?

 

(that should get him going)

 

Richard

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14 minutes ago, RLWP said:

BCN and Worcester & Birmingham?

 

(that should get him going)

 

Richard

That occurred to me just after I'd posted! And in a way illustrates why they didn't do it very often - not an ideal layout? 

17 minutes ago, Richard T said:

Preston Brook T&M and Bridgewater. Vaying sections of the Birmingham and Fazeley and Coventry between Fazeley and Fradley.

Whittington is interesting as the line was planned by one company and never intended to be a terminus. 

 

 

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I think there are a lot. A few below I’m not 100% sure of for one reason or another and a number that are debatable. Lots on the constituent parts of the BCN that were originally separate companies. Many of them have similar arrangements to the Warwick Canals at Saltisford (which opened on the same day). In addition to ones above;-

 

Oxford to Grand Union at Braunston

T&M (Wardle) to SU at Middlewich (?)

Rochdale to Calder & Hebble at Sowerby Bridge (?)

Stourport to Dudley at Black Delph

Wednesbury to Walsall at Ryder’s Green

Walsall to Walsall Junction Canal at Walsall Junction 

Walsall Junction Canal to Wyrley & Essington at the wharf above Walsall Top Lock

Rushall Canal to Wyrley & Essington Daw End Branch at Longwood Junction

BCN Netherton Tunnel Branch to Dudley at Windmill End

Trent & Mersey to Macclesfield at Hall Green (?)

Birmingham Canal to Birmingham & Fazeley Canal at Farmer’s Bridge

Huddersfield Broad to Huddersfield Narrow (?)

Bridgwater to Rochdale at Castlefield (?)

Droitwich Junction Canal to Droitwich Canal Navigation (via River Salwarpe?) at Droitwich

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg

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6 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

That occurred to me just after I'd posted! And in a way illustrates why they didn't do it very often - not an ideal layout? 

I thought you'd dispute the end on connection. For a very long time, it wasn't

 

Richard

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39 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

The only one I could think of is in Leigh, and I don't know the answer! Was there a now vanished terminal basin? Were the canals planned as a single unit from Worsley to Wigan and it was just convenient to join up there?

There is a basin still present a couple of boat lengths from Leigh Bridge.  I dont know how old it is though!

 

No the canals were not planned together.  The Leigh arm of the Bridgewater predates the Leigh branch of the L&L by quite a few years.

 

@Pluto is the man to ask.

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14 minutes ago, RLWP said:

I thought you'd dispute the end on connection. For a very long time, it wasn't

 

Richard

Like many I’ve listed there’s a strong argument it’s really a side on junction at an acute angle as a result of a change or extension to the through navigation; the true line of the Birmingham Canal now ending nose on to the filled bridge on Bridge Street at the end of Gas Street Basin.

 

I think the weird ones where one company owned a stub off their main line are true end on junctions - Preston Brook, Wardle, Hall Green (?). Black Delph seems to be a very genuine end on junction between two canals that are in many ways indistinguishable.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg

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Wey & Arun Junction Canal joined the Arun Navigation end on at Newbridge near Billingshurst in Sussex.

Thames & Severn Canal joined the Stroudwater Navigation at Wallbridge.

Pidcocks canal joined the Lydney canal.

Montgomeryshire canal joined the Ellesmere Canal at Llanymynech.

Westport canal joined the Parret Navigation.

Godalming Navigation joins the Wey Navigation.

Aylesham Navigation joined the River Bure near Coltishall.

North Walsham & Dilham Canal joined the River Ant.

 

I'll find a few more.

 

 

Edited by buccaneer66

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The junction at Leigh as shown in the first proposal for the L&LC branch from Wigan in 1802. The junction of the Lancaster and L&LC at the top of Johnsons Hillock is also an end on one, with the recesses for an extra pair of gates still visible. The main lock gates were Lancaster, while the L&LC had a separate pair to control water. I suspect most junctions would have such control gates unless the 'new' canal was higher than the original, as at the junction of the Bradford and L&LC. In such cases, water could not be lost by the older waterway.

Leigh end.JPG

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Loughborough basin existed before the Leicester Soar navigation by-passed Loughborough to the East and joined it 500 yards from the basin.

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6 hours ago, Pluto said:

The junction at Leigh as shown in the first proposal for the L&LC branch from Wigan in 1802.

Leigh end.JPG

That's interesting Mike.  Do you think the short bit of canal from Leigh Bridge to the basin near it was built by the L&LC to finish the link and then sold or gifted to the Bridgewater Canal company?  It's certainly signposted as Bridgewater Canal these days.

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The original junction was as shown in the plan, with enough space for a lock on the Manchester side of Leigh Bridge owned and built by the L&LC. This space seems to have been taken over by the  Bridgewater around 1905, when there were different policies between the two canals over subsidence. The L&LC allowed their canal to subside, building up the banks to compensate, and eventually moving the locks to Poolstock, while the Bridgewater purchased support so their canal did not subside - in theory. To allow for possible variations in level, it was agreed that a lock could be built at the junction, as below, with the necessary land probably passing to the Bridgewater at this time.

1905 Leigh lock.jpg

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In some of these cases, I think Middlewich is one, the connection is technically end-on, but only because the older company built a branch towards the newer so they would control the junction itself.

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13 hours ago, buccaneer66 said:

Wey & Arun Junction Canal joined the Arun Navigation end on at Newbridge near Billingshurst in Sussex.

Thames & Severn Canal joined the Stroudwater Navigation at Wallbridge.

Pidcocks canal joined the Lydney canal.

Montgomeryshire canal joined the Ellesmere Canal at Llanymynech.

Westport canal joined the Parret Navigation.

Godalming Navigation joins the Wey Navigation.

Aylesham Navigation joined the River Bure near Coltishall.

North Walsham & Dilham Canal joined the River Ant.

 

I'll find a few more.

 

 

I assumed the the Stroudwater/Thames and Severn was not originally end on, the Stroudwater ended in a basin alongside Wallbridge Lower Lock, only when the basin was filled in did the Junction become end on.

 

Tim

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14 hours ago, RLWP said:

I thought you'd dispute the end on connection. For a very long time, it wasn't

 

Richard

That did cross my mind, but wasn't why I discounted it at first - both termini had multiple arms. In many ways it wasn't what I had in mind either, two canals joining each other with no obvious join other than a sign telling you - although I realise that's what I said! The Birmingham Canal and the Worcs and Brum both have terminal basins and have a narrow connecting channel. 

 

 

15 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Rochdale to Calder & Hebble at Sowerby Bridge (?)

Wednesbury to Walsall at Ryder’s Green

Walsall to Walsall Junction Canal at Walsall Junction 

Walsall Junction Canal to Wyrley & Essington at the wharf above Walsall Top Lock

Rushall Canal to Wyrley & Essington Daw End Branch at Longwood Junction

Birmingham Canal to Birmingham & Fazeley Canal at Farmer’s Bridge

Bridgwater to Rochdale at Castlefield (?)

 

 

 

13 hours ago, buccaneer66 said:

Thames & Severn Canal joined the Stroudwater Navigation at Wallbridge.

Westport canal joined the Parret Navigation.

 

 

 

In all these cases there was at least a stub of canal beyond the junction - the Westport Canal wasn't even at the end of the Parrett, which carries on to Thorney Mills

15 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

T&M (Wardle) to SU at Middlewich (?)

Trent & Mersey to Macclesfield at Hall Green (?)

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Pluto said:

The junction of the Lancaster and L&LC at the top of Johnsons Hillock is also an end on one, with the recesses for an extra pair of gates still visible. The main lock gates were Lancaster, while the L&LC had a separate pair to control water. I suspect most junctions would have such control gates unless the 'new' canal was higher than the original, as at the junction of the Bradford and L&LC. In such cases, water could not be lost by the older waterway.

 

These are interesting as in both cases one canal company vbuilt a short branch in the full knowledge that another company was going to extend further - Johnson's Hill and Wardle would have been particularly pointless otherwise!

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10 hours ago, tom_c said:

The Erewash joins the Cromford end on below the lock at Langley Mill.

Tom 

 

14 hours ago, buccaneer66 said:

Wey & Arun Junction Canal joined the Arun Navigation end on at Newbridge near Billingshurst in Sussex.

Pidcocks canal joined the Lydney canal.

Montgomeryshire canal joined the Ellesmere Canal at Llanymynech.

 

15 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

Stourport to Dudley at Black Delph

Droitwich Junction Canal to Droitwich Canal Navigation (via River Salwarpe?) at Droitwich

 

 

Bingo on all these I think! Although I will admit I'm not familiar with the Pidcocks Canal  

14 hours ago, buccaneer66 said:

Godalming Navigation joins the Wey Navigation.

Aylesham Navigation joined the River Bure near Coltishall.

North Walsham & Dilham Canal joined the River Ant.

 

 

 

These are, in practice, river navigations so are rather different, as logically they would join "end on"

30 minutes ago, AndrewIC said:

In some of these cases, I think Middlewich is one, the connection is technically end-on, but only because the older company built a branch towards the newer so they would control the junction itself.

Indeed! Thank you!

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Tell us which you consider to be true end-on junctions @magpie patrick. I think some of us may be a bit puzzled because your original example is a conventional right angle junction between what were two independent canals.

 

JP

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Just now, Captain Pegg said:

Tell us which you consider to be true end-on junctions @magpie patrick. I think some of us may be a bit puzzled because your original example is a conventional right angle junction between what were two independent canals.

 

JP

Leigh isn't a right angle junction is it? I seem to recall sailing straight on from one to another?

 

Ah, I see the confusion - no, I was explaining to a 12 year old that canals normally have a "junction" like at Warwick  for a variety of practical reasons (he was looking at the book with me) - and then said 12 year old asked if canals ever did join "end on" and the only one I could think of was Leigh

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1 hour ago, Pluto said:

The original junction was as shown in the plan, with enough space for a lock on the Manchester side of Leigh Bridge owned and built by the L&LC. This space seems to have been taken over by the  Bridgewater around 1905, when there were different policies between the two canals over subsidence. The L&LC allowed their canal to subside, building up the banks to compensate, and eventually moving the locks to Poolstock, while the Bridgewater purchased support so their canal did not subside - in theory. To allow for possible variations in level, it was agreed that a lock could be built at the junction, as below, with the necessary land probably passing to the Bridgewater at this time.

 

Interesting, as not long afterwards the collieries and the Bridgewater Company got an Act (1907) allowing coal to be extracted but requiring the collieries to make good the canal - that act is still in force and the Coal Authority are still liable!

 

Also notable that the junction between the two (which is still a legal boundary as the Bridgewater isn't CRT) has moved

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15 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Oxford to Grand Union at Braunston

 

 

This is an interesting one. To a casual observer the Braunston Marina arm may appear to be  a side branch off the through route. But when the Grand Junction Canal (now the GU) joined the older Oxford Canal the through route was between the west and south arms of the current junction, the west arm past the Stop House being the route north and the line to Napton and Oxford running along the marina arm and round in a big loop to rejoin the current route west of Braunston Turn. This loop was cut off when the Puddle Bank was built as part of the North Oxford shortening.

 

I have a feeling the GJC/GU line between the bottom lock and the present marina entrance may also have changed when the reservoirs (now Braunston Marina mooring basins) were built.

 

So the original Oxford/GJC junction was probably different to that we see today.

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15 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Rochdale to Calder & Hebble at Sowerby Bridge (?)

 

JP

 

Not quite sure why there is a question mark after this.   It is a prime example of it being obvious which is the older, all the wharf buildings being concentrated on serving the basin at the end of the Calder and Hebble, while the Rochdale, completed about 35 years later, sensibly joins the C&H about 100 yards below the basin.

Incidentally the wharf buildings at Sowerby Bridge must be one of the best preserved and complete on the system, all put to new use now, of course.  It is a pleasure to moor there.

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45 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Leigh isn't a right angle junction is it? I seem to recall sailing straight on from one to another?

 

Ah, I see the confusion - no, I was explaining to a 12 year old that canals normally have a "junction" like at Warwick  for a variety of practical reasons (he was looking at the book with me) - and then said 12 year old asked if canals ever did join "end on" and the only one I could think of was Leigh

Aha. Get it. Thanks

 

54 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

Bingo on all these I think! Although I will admit I'm not familiar with the Pidcocks Canal  

These are, in practice, river navigations so are rather different, as logically they would join "end on"

Indeed! Thank you!

Agreed that river navigations don’t really count which would rule out Droitwich since the two canals never directly joined. They were a lot closer than the current arrangements but always separated by a short section of river navigation.

 

I’ll stick with Stourbridge and Dudley as one genuine example that I think always was and always has been an end on end junction.

 

JP

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

 

Not quite sure why there is a question mark after this.   It is a prime example of it being obvious which is the older, all the wharf buildings being concentrated on serving the basin at the end of the Calder and Hebble, while the Rochdale, completed about 35 years later, sensibly joins the C&H about 100 yards below the basin.

Incidentally the wharf buildings at Sowerby Bridge must be one of the best preserved and complete on the system, all put to new use now, of course.  It is a pleasure to moor there.

The Rochdale doesn’t quite meet the end of the C&H does it? As you say it runs to the south side of the C&H terminus basin and joins just east of the basin so therefore not truly end on end but still a through navigation without an obvious junction. 

 

There are lots of similar examples in my list as @magpie patrick has identified. For instance what’s often considered to be the through route of the Walsall canal (Pudding Green to Birchills) is in fact four different constituent canals that link via three similar junctions.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg

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