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End on junctions (and stop locks!)


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Yes the motor would have to reverse. 

 

Whilst this is off topic regarding end on junctions, this particular junction was surrounded by industry and craft would have taken the most direct route as possible. Basins and junctions were negotiated through the careful use of ropes, straps and poling.

 

So a "turn" coming from the Birmingham direction at Ladywood Junction would NOT be the acute angle turn, but one where 70ft craft would have to be worked back to the wharf where the craft was heading for. 

ladywj.png

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2 hours ago, Heartland said:

Whilst this is off topic regarding end on junctions, this particular junction was surrounded by industry and craft would have taken the most direct route as possible. Basins and junctions were negotiated through the careful use of ropes, straps and poling.

 

So a "turn" coming from the Birmingham direction at Ladywood Junction would NOT be the acute angle turn, but one where 70ft craft would have to be worked back to the wharf where the craft was heading for. 

ladywj.png

Are you suggesting that taking a boat backwards, whether horse boat or motor was much of an effort for a boatman ?  I can assure you taking boats backwards is not an issue at all for a professional working boatman - any problems with this type of boating being a phenomenon of the leisure industry. Please do not confuse the skills of a working boatman with those seen on pleasure boats today.

 

I am also very familiar with the junction at Ladywood and this never caused me or my counterparts any issue whatsoever, and it is absolutely obvious that it is too narrow to turn a full length boat. I think the southern entrance to Icknield Port Loop is also restricted due to its angle and narrow(ish) entrance, but I have never headed south to turn north at this junction as just like Oozells Street Loop it makes no sense.

 

I am starting to think that this discussion about the junction at Ladywood is a wind up :captain:

 

edit - I am also far from convinced that boats would go the most direct route to a wharf. There will always be a degree of going the easiest route, especially where these short loops are concerned.

Edited by pete harrison
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The discussion about Ladywood Junction started as an off topic comment. I am not at all be critical of your superior boating knowledge and my comments were generally referring back to the days of trade. Using the term to turn into was simply trying to explain the difficulties of the junction ( and the reason for this particular part of the post). But I do believe there is a different thread here. Where boat movement had to rely on ropes and poles, which was the basis of my original observation and it was not to denegrate the abilities of any boater and their skills with boats.  

Edited by Heartland
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3 minutes ago, Heartland said:

The discussion about Ladywood Junction started as an off topic comment. I am not at all be critical of your superior boating knowledge and my comments were generally referring back to the days of trade. Using the term to turn into was simply trying to explain the difficulties of the junction ( and the reason for this particular part of the post). But I do believe there is a different thread here. Where boat movement had to rely on ropes and poles, which was the basis of my original observation and it was not to denegrate the abilities of any boater and their skills with boats.  

I do think there is quite a difference in the theoretical / management / researcher outlook on boating practices and what is considered normal when compared to what the boatmen could do and did do. As you say this possibly warrants its own thread, but I fear those who could contribute from first hand experience and who also contribute to this Forum are few.

 

As far as our exchange of words is concerned only proves that the written word is harder to translate than a verbal conversation. I am sure we both know what we mean, and we are probably talking about the same thing :captain:

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As the OP and a moddy, I'm not unhappy with the way this has drifted off-topic! It's still a fascinating discussion!

 

The BCN has a number of curious junctions created by shortenings and new routes, some of which have altered over the years. Whilst it may be impossible to turn to and from Old Turn at Ladywood Junction, I can think of the following where one of the three* possible manoeuvres was never intended, or at least wasn't facilitated

 

* or two of the six if you want to be pedantic

 

Ryders Green

Pudding Green

Spon Lane

Bromford

Smethwick

Factory Junction

The junction at the E end of Icknield Port Loop

Ladywood

 

All but Spon Lane and Ryders Green were created by the New Main Line. Spon Lane was original, but may have been made more acute when the summit level was lowered? (This is supposition on my part, I have no evidence for it). Ryders Green was created when the Walsall Canal was built, and I assume they didn't expect much trade from the Wednesbury Old Canal towards Walsall.

 

With regards to reversing at these junctions, I'm sure it happened just as it did when boats came to basins that were either at acute angles to the main canal or were too small to turn round in, but the distance is key. Often the reverse was short and if it was long then there was an alternative way in (as at Ladywood/Old Turn) whereas one wouldn't readily reverse into Ryders Green Locks and then carry on backwards all the way to Walsall! (I know one would have been able to turn before then, but you get the drift)

 

Edited by magpie patrick
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2 hours ago, Pluto said:

From the few 18th century descriptions I have see, boats tended to be double-ended, so changing the position of the rudder could have been an easy solution.

This was apparently the case throughout the life of the Neath, Tennant and Swansea Canals, which results in a dearth of winding holes. At Pont Gam, the junction of the Neath and Tennant that started this discussion, a boat could thus have been reversed to allow transit, but as both canal lead to Neath no boats ever did this, boats came down the valley and went along one canal or the other

 

About three miles south of the junction both canals cross Bridge Street in Neath, so there are two Bridge Street Bridges - the street is named after the bridge over the River Neath, which sits between the two canals and was also used for navigation. 

 

(I might have to start a separate thread on the intricacies of the canals and river navigation between around Neath - or even a book...)

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Mike has noted a useful point about certain craft. Certainly BCN day boats had the facility to place the rudder at either end of the craft, which was basically my point about the BCN basins and junctions such as Ladywood.

 

If you look at Ladywood Junction today, there is still the stone blocks that lined the edge of the waterway. If they could speak they would no doubt mention the countless contacts made by day boats. Also as stated there was a boat dock just at that junction where the movement of boats in different directs would have been a regular occurrence. The existing of a towpath that extended only part way along the Oozells Branch serving the factories facing Sheepcote Street is also indication of the regular movement of boats in either direction through Ladywood Junction.

 

Many would have been along the north-south way. And I suppose this would have been true for Fellows, Morton & Clayton who established a warehouse at Sherborne Street in the late 1930's removing much of their northern trade (ex Shropshire Union) from the Crescent to there.

 

 

  

 

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