End on junctions (and stop locks!)

[Pluto]

Wheelton/Johnsons Hillock was supposed to be a T-junction, with the main line of the L&LC running almost parallel to the Lancaster, which it would have crossed at Aspull. How many canal crossings are there? If you want to see the Hillock junction, Kennet will be open above the second lock up this Saturday. We are working with the local IWA to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the Lancaster opening to Kendal. We have a display which includes photos of the tramway route, some taken in the 1950s/60s.

[Heartland]

Re You missed Coal Island canal/Dukarts canal.

 

believe the extension was a little more complicated as there was  Coal Island Basin and River Torrent involved

 

Another which deserves mention is

 

Forth & Clyde/ Monkland at Port Dundas Basin 

[Chris Lowe]

4 hours ago, Heartland said:

Re You missed Coal Island canal/Dukarts canal.

 

believe the extension was a little more complicated as there was  Coal Island Basin and River Torrent involved

 

Another which deserves mention is

 

Forth & Clyde/ Monkland at Port Dundas Basin 

I did mention this one way back in the thread

[Heartland]

Yes, but I was trying to decide if it met the criteria

 

In the same fashion I personally remain undecided about the Tenant Canal and the Neath Canal in view of the complex set of waterways that existed.

 

Looking at such waterways are helped through on line Ordnance maps for England, Scotland & Wales

 

Northern Ireland and Ireland did have Ordnance Survey maps, but searching these on line seens more difficult. Has anybody looked at such sources?

[magpie patrick]

2 hours ago, Heartland said:

Yes, but I was trying to decide if it met the criteria

 

In the same fashion I personally remain undecided about the Tenant Canal and the Neath Canal in view of the complex set of waterways that existed.

 

Looking at such waterways are helped through on line Ordnance maps for England, Scotland & Wales

 

Northern Ireland and Ireland did have Ordnance Survey maps, but searching these on line seens more difficult. Has anybody looked at such sources?

I can't see how the Tennant Canal and Neath Canal junction could be regarded as end on - it's a curious junction as it was impossible to turn from Tonna to Aberdulais and vice versa, but it wasn't end on

 

I'm very curious now about arrangements at Coalisland!

Edited July 27, 2019 by magpie patrick

[Pluto]

Brian Goggin's web pages, https://irishwaterwayshistory.com, are usually the best source for Irish canal history, but he doesn't appear to have done anything on the Tyrone navigations. I have copied some of the material held in the National Archive in Dublin, but haven't had the time to look through it in any detail. The map below comes from McCutcheon's 1965 article on Northern Irish canals. Ducart's Canal appears to join the Coalisland Canal at the basin in the town centre, the latter continuing some way further.

[1st ade]

18 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

it's a curious junction as it was impossible to turn from Tonna to Aberdulais and vice versa,

That sounds worthy of a new thread in its own right! Canal junctions where not all permutations of entering and leaving are possible

[Heartland]

Looking at the Ordnance survey,

 

The Tenant Canal did cross the River Neath to join up with the Neath Canal, but Neath canal went north to Glyn Neath and South to Briton Ferry and does not meet the criteria of end on junctions for both waterways.

 

 

[magpie patrick]

1 hour ago, Heartland said:

Looking at the Ordnance survey,

 

The Tenant Canal did cross the River Neath to join up with the Neath Canal, but Neath canal went north to Glyn Neath and South to Briton Ferry and does not meet the criteria of end on junctions for both waterways.

 

You've just reminded me though that the Neath joined with the Giants Frave and Britton Ferry canal at Britton Ferry. (The names is almost as long as the canal! To the uninitiated it is not at all obvious the extension to Giants Grave is actually a different canal) 

[Andrew Denny]

On 19/07/2019 at 18:10, Richard T said:

Preston Brook T&M and Bridgewater. Vaying sections of the Birmingham and Fazeley and Coventry between Fazeley and Fradley.

Did the T&M really meet the Bridgwater at the Preston Brook Tunnel? Or was it at the (appropriately named) Waters Meeting?

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, Andrew Denny said:

Did the T&M really meet the Bridgwater at the Preston Brook Tunnel? Or was it at the (appropriately named) Waters Meeting?

Haven't read any of this thread so forgive me if I'm out of context but:

 

The Waters Meeting I know is a long way from the T & M. It's where the Bridgewater branches off to Manchester, the main branch continuing to Leigh.

 

I think the actual junction between The Bridgewater and T & M is at the stop lock, just before the South end of the tunnel, (Dutton?).

 

HTH  

[Andrew Denny]

I was looking at the 'Water's Meeting' listed in Canalplan, but they do seem to list two such places.

[Richard10002]

27 minutes ago, Andrew Denny said:

I was looking at the 'Water's Meeting' listed in Canalplan, but they do seem to list two such places.

The other looks like where perhaps the Main Bridgewater heads off to Runcorn, and the branch heads off to Preston Brook. They seem to like the name Waters Meeting on the Bridgewater  

[Heartland]

It is my understanding that at Preston Brook the Trent & Mersey Canal joined the Bridgewater at the north portal and this is bore out by the Inland Waterway of England & Ireland (Lewis Edwards). It was 93 miles and 3 furlongs long from Derwent Mouth to the North end of the T & M Tunnel..

 

The junction with the Rochdale and Bridgewater, is less easy to follow. Edwards gives the section then open as finishing a lock 92. With Knott Mill Tunnel being only 78 yards long. Early maps for Manchester show the Rochdale being in a tunnel through to lock 92., which was the Dukes lock, to control trade and charge tolls accordingly. Years later such a toll, proved an inspiration to build the Liverpool and Manchester Railway.

[Pluto]

On 01/08/2019 at 10:11, Andrew Denny said:

Did the T&M really meet the Bridgwater at the Preston Brook Tunnel? Or was it at the (appropriately named) Waters Meeting?

There is (or was if removed) the first milepost on top of the tunnel where a stream crosses the tunnel mouth. This stream originally fed into the Bridgewater on the off side, and was carried over the tunnel when that was extended. The water may well have been used by the tunnel tug, at least one of whose crew lived in the cottages here.

[magpie patrick]

On 28/07/2019 at 09:16, 1st ade said:

That sounds worthy of a new thread in its own right! Canal junctions where not all permutations of entering and leaving are possible

I suspect it might be a class of one! Although some others are blimmin tight, e.g. the ones at the top and bottom of Spon Lane locks

[BEngo]

On 28/07/2019 at 09:16, 1st ade said:

That sounds worthy of a new thread in its own right! Canal junctions where not all permutations of entering and leaving are possible

In the case of a 70ft boat:

 

Ladywood Junction on the BCN. Cannot turn left off the new main line northbound, into the old main line loop.

 

Possibly Kingswood lower junction on the Stratford.  I don't think you can turn right at the tail of lock 20 to go through the reopened link, but I have never tried.

 

N

[Heartland]

Ladywood Junction with the Oozells Loop was a challenge for the motor boats, but I suppose reversing back in the Oozells Loop might have been an option. Yet, I do wonder in the days of poles, ropes, straps and horses, the problem of turning left was solved by more traditional methods

[BEngo]

The main line might have been wider back in the day, but a couple of years back, with only  a 60ft boat,  we ended up across the cut with the stern on the bank, the bow on the right bridge abutment and the left side of the boat against the left bridge abutment. No way it was going any further round. 

 

 Can't see any reason why a commercial boat would have wanted to turn left there though.  Much easier to go in at old turn and probably quicker.

 

We only tried because it was the easiest route back to the Farmers Bridge sani station.

N

[Heartland]

A few years back the junction at Ladywood was probably just as hard to turn-

 

 

 

 

At the time of BCN 250, the original canal went on for a turn at Sandy Turn. This Junction was an early BCN alteration.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Heartland

[Derek R.]

Lovely image. That's how I like to remember the BCN, and that's only from memories that go back to the early eighties! Would love to have seen it in the thirties.

[Andrew Denny]

On 05/08/2019 at 10:12, BEngo said:

In the case of a 70ft boat:

 

Ladywood Junction on the BCN. Cannot turn left off the new main line northbound, into the old main line loop.

 

Possibly Kingswood lower junction on the Stratford.  I don't think you can turn right at the tail of lock 20 to go through the reopened link, but I have never tried.

 

N

Ladywood Junction doesn't allow a 60ft boat to turn either. I think a 50ft can. 

[pete harrison]

On ‎05‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 13:19, Heartland said:

Ladywood Junction with the Oozells Loop was a challenge for the motor boats, but I suppose reversing back in the Oozells Loop might have been an option. Yet, I do wonder in the days of poles, ropes, straps and horses, the problem of turning left was solved by more traditional methods

This makes no sense as a motor heading south into Sherborne Street Wharf can go straight under the towpath bridge, and a motor coming from Farmers Bridge or Gas Street Basin would use the other end of the loop. Once within the Oozels Street Loop it is easy to wind. Reversing a motor from the Main Line from either end of the Oozels Street Loop to Sherborne Street Wharf is pretty easy but unnecessary, and shafting a day boat these short distances would be equally as easy - although there is a towpath part way around when approached from the north (bricked up and gated by Brummagem Boats Ltd. in about 1981).

 

I used to operate a motor / butty pair out of Sherborne Street Wharf in the early 1980's and for a bit of fun would often reverse back from The Longboat pub to my mooring under the old warehouse, in the dark and half pi$$ed. Happy days  

Edited August 10, 2019 by pete harrison

[Heartland]

When under Telford the new cur was made creating the Oozells Loop the Ladywood Junction was created with an acute angle junction coming from Birmingham. A simple exercise in trigonometry would prove that a 70 ft boat cannot turn back to Sherborne Street wharf, as the width of the canal would prevent it, if tried in that fashion and only craft coming from the opposite direction would be able to head through the junction to Sherborne Street wharf. However there was a boat dock just inside the junction on the Oozells Loop. Craft were built there and will ropes could be pulled back to the dock if needed, hence my previous observartons.

[pete harrison]

4 minutes ago, Heartland said:

When under Telford the new cur was made creating the Oozells Loop the Ladywood Junction was created with an acute angle junction coming from Birmingham. A simple exercise in trigonometry would prove that a 70 ft boat cannot turn back to Sherborne Street wharf, as the width of the canal would prevent it, if tried in that fashion and only craft coming from the opposite direction would be able to head through the junction to Sherborne Street wharf. However there was a boat dock just inside the junction on the Oozells Loop. Craft were built there and will ropes could be pulled back to the dock if needed, hence my previous observartons.

But you specifically mentioned motors and the acute turn at Ladywood !

 

Moving an unpowered boat is not difficult, it just takes a bit of thought combined with a bit of brawn. Even in the 1970's and 1980's we were still occasionally moving boats by hand