New gas locker and oven

[B2019]

Hopefully we can remove this good awful directive once we leave the European Union? 126 pages ?. You could it up in a 10 page document max...

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, B2019 said:

Hopefully we can remove this good awful directive once we leave the European Union? 126 pages ?. You could it up in a 10 page document max...

Don't go putting money on that

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, B2019 said:

Hopefully we can remove this good awful directive once we leave the European Union? 126 pages ?. You could it up in a 10 page document max...

And remember it is basically referring you to 10,000's of pages of specifications and standards. The RCD itself states very little (as you showed on the section about LPG 1 paragraph refers to you 22 pages of standard which in turn will refer you to a further 100 pages of component specifications)

[Murflynn]

if you believe that leaving the EU will result in the abolition of the requirement to build consumer goods to recognised industry standards then you are in a parallel universe.

 

if that were the case we would never be able to sell anything into Europe or any other trading area that recognises international standards (ISO's).   

 

The RCD is not just for canal boats - think dinghies, speedboats, angling boats, sailing yachts, gin palaces - they all have certification so they can be sold overseas which is probably more than half the market for many types of vessel.

[B2019]

I've been in contact with someone who can make me this gas box. Anyone see any issues with the design?

[cherswud]

It needs ventilation holes low down - are they present in the model shown (on the bottom, around on the side or rear that are not visible in the photo)?
Given it's for a pretty heavy gas bottle, does it need to be more securely braced to prevent movement (more than the bolt at the top)?

[system 4-50]

Does the drain go to a permitted location?

Is the drain of the required size?

How does the service pipe get out?

Is the sides of the box high enough to meet the regulations?

is it easy to get the bottle in and out?

Is there room for the regulator?

Can you lock the bottle in in any way?

Is the interior of the locker protected from the elements?

Where does your spare bottle go?

How is the locker itself to be secured?

Can it be painted a nice shade of green?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, cherswud said:

It needs ventilation holes low down - are they present in the model shown (on the bottom, around on the side or rear that are not visible in the photo)?
Given it's for a pretty heavy gas bottle, does it need to be more securely braced to prevent movement (more than the bolt at the top)?

IT MUST NOT HAVE ANY 'VENTILATION HOLES'

 

Your advice is DANGEROUS and must be ignored.

 

Your advice is totally against the requirements of the UK Boat Safety Certificate.

 

Apart from a drain pipe at the lowest point it must be gas tight to above the height of the cylinder.

 

 

44 minutes ago, B2019 said:

Anyone see any issues with the design?

Assuming that it meets the dimensional requirements (as listed by System 4-50) what means does it have to secure the gas cylinder inside the 'locker' to stop the cylinder moving ?

[cherswud]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

IT MUST NOT HAVE ANY 'VENTILATION HOLES'

 

Your advice is DANGEROUS and must be ignored.

 

Your advice is totally against the requirements of the UK Boat Safety Certificate.

 

Apart from a drain pipe at the lowest point it must be gas tight to above the height of the cylinder.

 

 

Assuming that it meets the dimensional requirements (as listed by System 4-50) what means does it have to secure the gas cylinder inside the 'locker' to stop the cylinder moving ?

Alan,

Can you please clarify for me then why gas lockers have holes just above the water line? I thought that was to allow any leaking gas to escape from low down as gas is heavier than air.

Cheers, Marilyn
 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, cherswud said:

Alan,

Can you please clarify for me then why gas lockers have holes just above the water line? I thought that was to allow any leaking gas to escape from low down as gas is heavier than air.

Cheers, Marilyn
 

No problem - but you can read it yourself in the BSS guidelines should you require.

 

The OPs gas locker is mounted above the deck.

 

The gas locker MUST be vented at the base of the locker so any gas escape is directed overboard. The OP has achieved this by running a 'pipe' from the bottom of the locker under the gunnel & thru, the hull.

 

Your suggestion of having 'ventilation holes' shows a total lack of understanding of the requirements - and should the OP follow your advice could easily end up with gas vapours flowing around his deck and into the bilges. Gas will accumulate over time until one day it will go 'BANG'.

 

I would suggest that you keep your incorrect (but no doubt well intentioned) advice to yourself unless you actually have some knowledge of the subject you are talking about.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[cherswud]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No problem - but you can read it yourself in the BSS guidelines should you require.

 

The OPs gas locker is mounted above the deck.

 

The gas locker MUST be vented at the base of the locker so any gas escape is directed overboard. The OP has achieved this by running a 'pipe' from the bottom of the locker under the gunnel & thru, the hull.

 

Your suggestion of having 'ventilation holes' shows a total lack of understanding of the requirements - and should the OP follow your advice could easily end up with gas vapours flowing around his deck and into the bilges. Gas will accumulate over time until one day it will go 'BANG'.

 

I would suggest that you keep your incorrect (but no doubt well intentioned) advice to yourself unless you actually have some knowledge of the subject you are talking about.

OK, thanks,

 

Considering myself very firmly told off.

[ditchcrawler]

Funny, other people spout crap on here and dont get taken to task

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Funny, other people spout crap on here and dont get taken to task

If I see anyone 'spouting' potentially lethal-crap then I will take them to task, and would hope that others who have knowledge in other areas would do the same.

 

If some want to 'spout' crap about paint, toilets, or widebeams etc just let them get on with it.

 

The forum should be promoting safety whenever possible.

[cherswud]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Funny, other people spout crap on here and dont get taken to task

My mistake - I thought I made a sensible suggestion, but realised that was not the case on receiving Alan's reply which was helpful and pointed out the related safety issues - and all made sense. 

 

However being reprimanded in that manner, even with the patronising sop of 'well intentioned', feels rather OTT and off-putting.

 

Still, I've learnt my lesson ...

 

I'd only just started looking at this forum again tonight. Now I remember why I stopped - not because I was bollocked, but because I got tired of reading it happening to others.

 

Cheers, M

[system 4-50]

42 minutes ago, cherswud said:

My mistake - I thought I made a sensible suggestion, but realised that was not the case on receiving Alan's reply which was helpful and pointed out the related safety issues - and all made sense. 

 

However being reprimanded in that manner, even with the patronising sop of 'well intentioned', feels rather OTT and off-putting.

 

Still, I've learnt my lesson ...

 

I'd only just started looking at this forum again tonight. Now I remember why I stopped - not because I was bollocked, but because I got tired of reading it happening to others.

 

Cheers, M

Don't be put off, M.  AdeE lurves to react strongly to anything related to safety or to rules and regulations.  A correction was necessary but could have been phrased differently.  Stay with us but don full safety equipment (like the rest of us) before reading his posts! 

Thousands of lives have been saved by his attention to detail...

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, cherswud said:

OK, thanks,

 

Considering myself very firmly told off.

Unfortunately the written word comes across far more abruptly and harshly than the writer (usually) intended, so whilst the writer should ideally think about what they have written before posting, with safety issues there is usually a sense of ‘time is of the essence’.  So please take the comments in the manner in which they were (probably) intended rather than as it may sound to you.  

[B2019]

2 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

Does the drain go to a permitted location?

Is the drain of the required size?

How does the service pipe get out?

Is the sides of the box high enough to meet the regulations?

is it easy to get the bottle in and out?

Is there room for the regulator?

Can you lock the bottle in in any way?

Is the interior of the locker protected from the elements?

Where does your spare bottle go?

How is the locker itself to be secured?

Can it be painted a nice shade of green?

 

 

The picture is just an example of the engineers work. Mine will be similar to the picture hopefully. The engineer said to me that he fully aware of BSS requirements. The box will be bolted to the boat. It's much cheaper to get a box made and bolt it to the boat instead of a box welded to the boat. I won't have a spare bottle. Only one as I'm using it for the cooker. Cold water only on my boat unfortunately. Thanks for all of your questions and I will make sure to ask the engineer all of your questions. 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

IT MUST NOT HAVE ANY 'VENTILATION HOLES'

 

Your advice is DANGEROUS and must be ignored.

 

Your advice is totally against the requirements of the UK Boat Safety Certificate.

 

Apart from a drain pipe at the lowest point it must be gas tight to above the height of the cylinder.

 

 

Assuming that it meets the dimensional requirements (as listed by System 4-50) what means does it have to secure the gas cylinder inside the 'locker' to stop the cylinder moving ?

Most likely a strap around the bottle but another question I need to raise with the engineer. Many thanks. 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, B2019 said:

The picture is just an example of the engineers work. Mine will be similar to the picture hopefully. The engineer said to me that he fully aware of BSS requirements. The box will be bolted to the boat. It's much cheaper to get a box made and bolt it to the boat instead of a box welded to the boat. I won't have a spare bottle. Only one as I'm using it for the cooker. Cold water only on my boat unfortunately. Thanks for all of your questions and I will make sure to ask the engineer all of your questions. 

Most likely a strap around the bottle but another question I need to raise with the engineer. Many thanks. 

That's is a typical solution but the question has been raised before - if you drill thru' the 'cabinet' to mount the strap the holes (even when filled with a bolt & nut) can be considered to have actually penetrated the cabinet wall (below the height of the top of the cylinder) and now not meet the requirements.

There is an argument that if you fill the hole with 'snot' then push the bolt thru' it will comply - but - is it worth the risk when you have the opportunity to do a 'propa-job'.

 

Get your fabricator to weld a 'loop' (or two) on the inside that you can pass the ratchet-strap thru.

That will pass the BSS without any problem.

[Athy]

2 hours ago, cherswud said:

 

 

However being reprimanded in that manner, even with the patronising sop of 'well intentioned', feels rather OTT and off-putting.

 

 

"Well intentioned" would be seen as a compliment by many people.

Mr. de Enfield's comments were made with safety in mind, and are equally well intentioned.

[system 4-50]

12 hours ago, B2019 said:

The box will be bolted to the boat.

AdeE's comments about strap bolt holes apply to these bolts as well...

[TheBiscuits]

11 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

AdeE's comments about strap bolt holes apply to these bolts as well...

Did you look at the picture?

 

Very clear mounting lugs welded to the box.

15 hours ago, B2019 said:

 

 

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

Did you look at the picture?

 

Very clear mounting lugs welded to the box.

 

I stand corrected.

[TheBiscuits]

14 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

I stand corrected.

You weren't wrong - it's a very valid point, but those good lugs were one of the first things I noticed when looking at that locker.  It bodes well for the whole thing being BSS compliant.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

You weren't wrong - it's a very valid point, but those good lugs were one of the first things I noticed when looking at that locker.  It bodes well for the whole thing being BSS compliant.

I would suggest that there should, maybe, be a lug 'on each corner' bolted thru'.

 

The shock load of a 30kg gas cylinder thrashing about after the boat has been hit by another boat (or any other impacts) could be enormous.

 

I remember when I was working with Ford on the seat mounts for the BE13 (Fiesta) and CE14 (Escort) the tremendous G-Forces we had to allow for.

Its not something you think about until you are directly involved.

[B2019]

On 18/07/2019 at 16:24, Alan de Enfield said:

If you read the BSS guidelines / rules it gives you chapter & verse about what they will accept (and won't accept)

 

It is section 7 you need to read - here is just a very small 'snippet' of the requirements 

 

The sides of every cylinder locker must extend at least
up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher.
Up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher, the bottom, sides, and seams of every cylinder
locker must be free of any:
• holes, e.g. caused by drilling, rust or cutting; or ,
• cracks, splits or de‐laminations; or,
• missing or damaged welds at seams; or,
• other signs of damage or deterioration…
…. that can be determined by visual examination to
penetrate the locker to the interior of the vessel.
Cylinder locker bottoms, sides and seams covered by
this check must not rely upon glue or sealant to
prevent any leaked LPG from entering the interior of
the vessel.

So my gas locker has been made and the engineer came around yesterday with the box to find out where to place the vent pipe that goes off the boat. Unfortunately as it's a small boat there was no place for mounting brackets. So he said he will drill two holes through the box and boat. Fit two bolts with rubber washers to secure the box and make sure no gas can enter the interior of the vessel. Is that compliant with the above?

Edited September 24, 2019 by B2019
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