New gas locker and oven

[B2019]

Hi boaters, 

 

My boat doesn't have a locker or oven in it. I've been quoted £500+ for welding a new box to the boat not including gas fitting. Any cheaper ways of doing it? Such as wooden box with metal inside lining and outlet pipe/vent?

[MtB]

 

No.

 

Sounds a pretty cheap price to me for constructing a gas locker, assuming it includes making a hinged lid and installing the drain. 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit

[B2019]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No.

 

Sounds a pretty cheap price to me for constructing a gas locker, assuming it includes making a hinged lid and installing the drain. 

 

 

How about buying this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-GAS-BOTTLE-STORAGE-CONTAINER-13-KG-CAMPING-CARAVAN-BUILDING-HEATING/171510954283?pageci=93909c6a-5c55-4cd1-baba-d7c662c035b8&epid=1254957136

 

Drilling it to the boat and adapting it( vent and outlet pipe etc)? 

[MtB]

 

That doesn't comply, unless the removable front panel has a gas-tight seal around it which I very much doubt.

 

The gas locker has to be gas-tight up to above the valve on the gas bottle(s).

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, B2019 said:

How about buying this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-GAS-BOTTLE-STORAGE-CONTAINER-13-KG-CAMPING-CARAVAN-BUILDING-HEATING/171510954283?pageci=93909c6a-5c55-4cd1-baba-d7c662c035b8&epid=1254957136

 

Drilling it to the boat and adapting it( vent and outlet pipe etc)? 

If you read the BSS guidelines / rules it gives you chapter & verse about what they will accept (and won't accept)

 

It is section 7 you need to read - here is just a very small 'snippet' of the requirements 

 

The sides of every cylinder locker must extend at least
up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher.
Up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher, the bottom, sides, and seams of every cylinder
locker must be free of any:
• holes, e.g. caused by drilling, rust or cutting; or ,
• cracks, splits or de‐laminations; or,
• missing or damaged welds at seams; or,
• other signs of damage or deterioration…
…. that can be determined by visual examination to
penetrate the locker to the interior of the vessel.
Cylinder locker bottoms, sides and seams covered by
this check must not rely upon glue or sealant to
prevent any leaked LPG from entering the interior of
the vessel.

[B2019]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you read the BSS guidelines / rules it gives you chapter & verse about what they will accept (and won't accept)

 

It is section 7 you need to read - here is just a very small 'snippet' of the requirements 

 

The sides of every cylinder locker must extend at least
up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher.
Up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or
other high‐pressure components where these are
higher, the bottom, sides, and seams of every cylinder
locker must be free of any:
• holes, e.g. caused by drilling, rust or cutting; or ,
• cracks, splits or de‐laminations; or,
• missing or damaged welds at seams; or,
• other signs of damage or deterioration…
…. that can be determined by visual examination to
penetrate the locker to the interior of the vessel.
Cylinder locker bottoms, sides and seams covered by
this check must not rely upon glue or sealant to
prevent any leaked LPG from entering the interior of
the vessel.

I see... 

 

I've just looked at BSS guidelines.. I could create a wooden box with FRP lining. Wood will be drilled into but covered with FRP inside so you can't even see holes. 

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, B2019 said:

I see... 

 

I've just looked at BSS guidelines.. I could create a wooden box with FRP lining. Wood will be drilled into but covered with FRP inside so you can't even see holes. 

 

There you go then.

 

Just make sure it is gas tight up to above valve level (and gas pipe level), AND, the overboard drain hole is of the correct size.

[B2019]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There you go then.

 

Just make sure it is gas tight up to above valve level (and gas pipe level), AND, the overboard drain hole is of the correct size.

Perfect. I'm going to create the locker and get gas engineer to do fittings, I'm not touching that!

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, B2019 said:

Perfect. I'm going to create the locker and get gas engineer to do fittings, I'm not touching that!

Check the drain hole size against the cross reference list (the hole size varies with what gas appliances you have on board)

[MtB]

 

Have to admit I don't know what FRP stands for, but I see it is an acceptable material to make or line a gas locker with, for BSS purposes. 

 

It may not be RCD compliant though, if that matters to the OP. 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Have to admit I don't know what FRP stands for, but I see it is an acceptable material to make or line a gas locker with, for BSS purposes. 

 

It may not be RCD compliant though, if that matters to the OP. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre-reinforced_plastic

 

Basically GRP

[B2019]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Have to admit I don't know what FRP stands for, but I see it is an acceptable material to make or line a gas locker with, for BSS purposes. 

 

It may not be RCD compliant though, if that matters to the OP. 

The RCD is a really difficult area. When I bought the boat it was fitted with an old oven, gas bottle and container but it was not BSS compliant so it was removed. Now because it originally had a gas installation when I bought it would not constitute a major change and thus not effect the RCD. The RCD only applies to the first year the boat goes on water/ the first person whom puts the boat on the market. So with relevant BSS or gas engineer certificate all should be fine. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by B2019
Error

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, B2019 said:

The RCD only applies to the first year the boat goes on water/ the first person whom puts the boat on the market.

That is not correct.

The RCD is applicable for the full life of the boat.

If a boat is re-engine after (say) 20 years the engine must be RCD approved and the boat re-certified.

If the boat is (say) stripped out and re-fitted, which could affect the stability it must be re-certified.

 

I think you are getting confused with not needing to get a BSSC if you have an RCD.

 

There have been some changes for the rules applicable to craft that undergo a Major Craft Conversion, along with a better definition of what this actually means.

The definition of Major Craft Conversion:

‘major craft conversion’ means a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this Directive.

The new responsibility in the Directive:

Article 19

3. Any person placing on the market or putting into service a propulsion engine or a watercraft after a major modification or conversion thereof, or any person changing the intended purpose of a watercraft not covered by this Directive in a way that it falls under its scope, shall apply the procedure referred to in Article 23 before placing the product on the market or putting it into service.

The Applicable conformity assessment procedure that must be carried out:

Article 23 - Post-construction assessment

Major Craft Conversion has now also been included in the scope of the directive:

Article 2- Scope

1. This Directive shall apply to the following products:  (f) watercraft that are subject to major craft conversion.

What does this mean?

What this now means is that any CE marked vessel[1] that undergoes a Major Craft Conversion must undergo a post construction assessment before being placed back on the market or put into service (whichever is the earlier). The legal responsibility for this is placed on the person who is placing the vessel back on the market or putting it back into service after the works have been carried out.

 

[B2019]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That is not correct.

The RCD is applicable for the full life of the boat.

If a boat is re-engine after (say) 20 years the engine must be RCD approved and the boat re-certified.

If the boat is (say) stripped out and re-fitted, which could affect the stability it must be re-certified.

 

I think you are getting confused with not needing to get a BSSC if you have an RCD.

 

There have been some changes for the rules applicable to craft that undergo a Major Craft Conversion, along with a better definition of what this actually means.

The definition of Major Craft Conversion:

‘major craft conversion’ means a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements laid down in this Directive.

The new responsibility in the Directive:

Article 19

3. Any person placing on the market or putting into service a propulsion engine or a watercraft after a major modification or conversion thereof, or any person changing the intended purpose of a watercraft not covered by this Directive in a way that it falls under its scope, shall apply the procedure referred to in Article 23 before placing the product on the market or putting it into service.

The Applicable conformity assessment procedure that must be carried out:

Article 23 - Post-construction assessment

Major Craft Conversion has now also been included in the scope of the directive:

Article 2- Scope

1. This Directive shall apply to the following products:  (f) watercraft that are subject to major craft conversion.

What does this mean?

What this now means is that any CE marked vessel[1] that undergoes a Major Craft Conversion must undergo a post construction assessment before being placed back on the market or put into service (whichever is the earlier). The legal responsibility for this is placed on the person who is placing the vessel back on the market or putting it back into service after the works have been carried out.

 

Well I'm not actually changing anything that the previous owner had fitted at the point of sale. I'm just fixing things but making no major changes. At the point of sale it had an oven, gas bottle and connection so the I'm not legally liable if  a new connection/ gas box is connected. The responsibility lies on the previous owner as long as I get the gas connection certified by a gas engineer. I've got loads of pictures of the boat on the day of sale to prove that I've not changed anything, just made it BSS compliant and as safe as possible. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, B2019 said:

Well I'm not actually changing anything that the previous owner had fitted at the point of sale. I'm just fixing things but making no major changes. At the point of sale it had an oven, gas bottle and connection so the I'm not legally liable if  a new connection/ gas box is connected. The responsibility lies on the previous owner as long as I get the gas connection certified by a gas engineer. I've got loads of pictures of the boat on the day of sale to prove that I've not changed anything, just made it BSS compliant and as safe as possible. 

It is your boat so anything you want goes.

 

3 minutes ago, B2019 said:

......alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety...…………..

If your gas -fitter signs it off to say it complies with the RCD requirements then obviously that condition is met and it will still be compliant.

 

(For information the relevant ISO standard that it will need signing off to is ISO 10239 "Small Craft Liquified Petroleum Gas Systems")

[B2019]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is your boat so anything you want goes.

 

If your gas -fitter signs it off to say it complies with the RCD requirements then obviously that condition is met and it will still be compliant.

 

(For information the relevant ISO standard that it will need signing off to is ISO 10239 "Small Craft Liquified Petroleum Gas Systems")

This is all the RCD says about gas systems: 

 

5.5. Gas system 
Gas systems for domestic use shall be of the vapour-withdrawal type and shall be designed and installed so as to avoid leaks and the risk of explosion and becapable of being tested for 
leaks. Materials and components shall be suitable for the specific gas used to withstand the  stresses and exposures found in the marine environment. 
Each gas appliance intended by the manufacturer for the application for which it is used shall be so installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions. Each gas-consuming 
appliance must be supplied by a separate branch of the distributionsystem, and each  appliance must be controlled by a separate closing device. Adequate ventilation must be 
provided to prevent hazards from leaks and products of combustion. 
All watercraft with a permanently installed gas system shall be fitted with an enclosure to contain all gas cylinders. The enclosure shall be separated from the living quarters, accessible  only from the outside and ventilated to the outside so that any escaping gas drains overboard.  In particular, any permanently installed gas system shall be tested after installation.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, B2019 said:

This is all the RCD says about gas systems: 

 

5.5. Gas system 
Gas systems for domestic use shall be of the vapour-withdrawal type and shall be designed and installed so as to avoid leaks and the risk of explosion and becapable of being tested for 
leaks. Materials and components shall be suitable for the specific gas used to withstand the  stresses and exposures found in the marine environment. 
Each gas appliance intended by the manufacturer for the application for which it is used shall be so installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions. Each gas-consuming 
appliance must be supplied by a separate branch of the distributionsystem, and each  appliance must be controlled by a separate closing device. Adequate ventilation must be 
provided to prevent hazards from leaks and products of combustion. 
All watercraft with a permanently installed gas system shall be fitted with an enclosure to contain all gas cylinders. The enclosure shall be separated from the living quarters, accessible  only from the outside and ventilated to the outside so that any escaping gas drains overboard.  In particular, any permanently installed gas system shall be tested after installation.

 

 

You conveniently missed off the last line

 

In full :

 

10 GAS INSTALLATION
ER 5.5 Gas systems for domestic use shall be of the vapour-withdrawal type and shall be designed and
installed so as to avoid leaks and the risk of explosion and be capable of being tested for leaks.
Materials and components shall be suitable for the specific gas used to withstand the stresses and
exposures found in the marine environment.
Each appliance shall be equipped with a flame failure device effective on all burners. Each gasconsuming
appliance must be supplied by a separate branch of the distribution system, and each
appliance must be controlled by a separate closing device. Adequate ventilation must be provided to
prevent hazards from leaks and products of combustion.
All craft with a permanently installed gas system shall be fitted with an enclosure to contain all gas
cylinders. The enclosure shall be separated from the living quarters, accessible only from the outside
and ventilated to the outside so that any escaping gas drains overboard. Any permanent gas system
shall be tested after installation.
Harmonised standard: BS EN ISO 10239:2008 - Small craft - Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) system

 

 

 

 

The Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) specifies that LPG installations must conform to ISO standard 10239 LPG Gas Systems for all recreational craft of less than 24m LOA.

 

If the boat is to be used as a Liveaboard then it comes within scope of the Gas (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 and the installation must be undertaken by a suitably qualified person (not all gas fitters are)

[ditchcrawler]

And if the boat is not covered by the RCD?

[B2019]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And if the boat is not covered by the RCD?

Well all my insurance states: 

 

...... is constructed of fibreglass, aluminium or steel and does not exceed 80ft in length.
• The permanent home mooring of ......

is in the United Kingdom.
• ...Will be maintained in a proper state of repair and seaworthiness, and in the case of trailers, roadworthiness, and will exercise due care and

diligence in safeguarding your boat and property.
• You possess a current Canal & River Trust or Environment Agency Licence, or the equivalent Licence from the local Navigation Authority as appropriate, and a current Boat Safety Certificate. In addition, if ........ is over 30 years old and over 23ft in length, you have in your possession a survey report not more than five years old from a qualified surveyor, with all recommendations complied with.

 

It states nothing about an RCD or RCD compliance within the terms so it doesn't matter. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

And if the boat is not covered by the RCD?

The OP stated that the RCD expires 1 year after launch / being put on the market. (Post #12)

The OP said that renewing the gas system would not affect the RCD (suggesting that it is an RCD boat)

 

The discussion since was showing that both of these statements were incorrect..

 

The OP then quoted the RCD, and having missed the requirement to test to the ISO spec I had mentioned, stated that "This is all the RCD says about gas systems"  

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, B2019 said:

Well all my insurance states: 

• You possess a current Canal & River Trust or Environment Agency Licence, or the equivalent Licence from the local Navigation Authority as appropriate, and a current Boat Safety Certificate. In addition, if ........ is over 30 years old and over 23ft in length, you have in your possession a survey report not more than five years old from a qualified surveyor, with all recommendations complied with.

 

It states nothing about an RCD or RCD compliance within the terms so it doesn't matter. 

 

So, in the 1st year of use (when you are operating under the RCD rather than having a BSSC your insurance is invalidated ?

 

 

As I said earlier - its your boat, you'll do what you want, you will get your BSSC because the boat does not require to be RCD complaint and no one will ever know what you have done or what specs you have / have not complied with.

[MtB]

The point being, the OP has made several false and misleading statements about the scope of the RCD (about which the OP may not care) but this is a public forum and other people read it, and tend to believe incorrect assertions unless someone challenges them.

 

The statements by the B2019 that the RCD lasts only a year, and that the RCD says nothing about complying with BS EN ISO 10239:2008 - Small craft - Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) system have been demonstrated by Alan to be wrong, so to anyone reading this thread it is best to disregard any comments by B2019 about RCD. 

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit

[B2019]

20 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The point being, the OP has made several false and misleading statements about the scope of the RCD (about which the OP may not care) but this is a public forum and other people read it, and tend to believe incorrect assertions unless someone challenges them.

 

The statements by the B2019 that the RCD lasts only a year, and that the RCD says nothing about complying with BS EN ISO 10239:2008 - Small craft - Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) system have been demonstrated by Alan to be wrong, so to anyone reading this thread it is best to disregard any comments by B2019 about RCD. 

 

 

 

I agree, however I've spoken to two surveyors who stated the RCD only applies to the boats first year on the water then the BSS is needed after that.  I can only go by what they have said 

[MtB]

Just now, B2019 said:

I agree, however I've spoken to two surveyors who stated the RCD only applies to the boats first year on the water then the BSS is needed after that.  I can only go by what they have said 

 

That's worrying. Two surveyors out there taking money for professional advice and they don't understand the requirements of the RCD. 

 

I think you should name them.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 hours ago, B2019 said:

I agree, however I've spoken to two surveyors who stated the RCD only applies to the boats first year on the water then the BSS is needed after that.  I can only go by what they have said 

 

I think you may have misunderstood - what the surveyors have actually said is that after the 1st year's 'grace', on C&RT waters you are expected to get a BSSC certificate.

NOT that the RCD 'expires' after 12 months.

Knowing that boats built to the RCD meet far higher requirements than the BSS (and are checked and certified for compliance) they know that the boat is 'safe' but realise that demanding that you pay £150 for another (lower level) certificate before launching your new boat is really 'not on'.

 

The RCD is not 're-checked' (like your car MOT, or boat BSSC) and relies on 'trust' that you will not do anything to invalidate it - so - C&RT have introduced the BSSC so that they have regular proof that the boater having 'fiddled' with it has left it in what they consider to be a safe condition (not necessarily still RCD compliant)

 

The RCD is a 'life-of-boat' certification, until something 'major' is done to invalidate it, at which point you are required to have it re-certified.

 

Remember that C&RT 'own' the BSS so they do have an interest in keeping 'the boys' working and bringing in money.

 

"The Boat Safety Scheme, or BSS, is a public safety initiative owned by the Canal & River Trust and the Environment Agency".

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/

Edited July 19, 2019 by Alan de Enfield