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UK to Comply With EU Ruling on Red Diesel.


Alan de Enfield

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I can’t see it ever happening, farmers use red diesel.

the marina owners I have spoken to said they would not change to white diesel because it would cost more too than they could ever hope to recoup and the profits from red are almost nonexistent as it is.

 

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11 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

It still remains combustible but on ageing it starts forming gums which will start blocking injectors or maybe more waxing at low temps in very cold winters etc. Maybe Alan's experience of 5 years with farm type equipment is ok but.......then there is the addition of bio-diesel which shortens the shelf life and increases the chance of diesel bug. I'd be concerned about diesel over a couple of years old.

....interesting....is there a 'diesel conditioning'  product available that can be used to boost old diesel?

I've got a 5 gal drum full of diesel about 15 years old......

 

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1 hour ago, dunfixing said:

I can’t see it ever happening, farmers use red diesel.

the marina owners I have spoken to said they would not change to white diesel because it would cost more too than they could ever hope to recoup and the profits from red are almost nonexistent as it is.

 

 

That is just their schtick. 

 

If all suppliers of red diesel simply stopped selling fuel all narrowboats would overnight become unusable, the value of boats would fall through the floor and their business model of the marina owners flogging moorings at £3k a year each would evaporate. I predict this will not happen, a few red diesel sellers WILL set up selling white at say £1.70 a litre. A proportion of boaters will twart about bringing road diesel in cans but the (fewer) canalside retailers who will switch to white will be doing a handsome and profitable trade selling it to boaters not so stupid as to waste hours of time and effort that could be spent boating, moving fuel in tiny batches from petrol stations into the boat in order to save £3 a day on fuel costs. 

 

 

An utterly trivial sum in relation to the overall cost of boating.

 

 

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1 hour ago, dunfixing said:

I can’t see it ever happening, farmers use red diesel.

the marina owners I have spoken to said they would not change to white diesel because it would cost more too than they could ever hope to recoup and the profits from red are almost nonexistent as it is.

 

They are telling porkies!  I ran a diesel boat for some years.  I bought my diesel from the same sources as the marinas, consistently charged a penny or two less than the marinas, and consistently made a fair profit on my sales.

 

However, I do believe many canal retailers will stop selling when white comes along, as it would be noticeably dearer than garages.  Many customers will buy in jerry cans and decant into the boat tank with all the spillage problems that will cause. 

 

George

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

....but the (fewer) canalside retailers who will switch to white will be doing a handsome and profitable trade selling it to boaters not so stupid as to waste hours of time and effort that could be spent boating, moving fuel in tiny batches from petrol stations into the boat in order to save £3 a day on fuel costs. 

 

 

This

 

When I was bringing Lutine home I found inconvenient gaps in boatyards for fuel with tge engine using far more than it should (cos it was leaking into the oil) and a small tank - so I had to go and fetch diesel on a regular basis. 

 

Only where the garage sold red did I buy it (Marlborough Tesco) - usually I just got white at Sainsbury in Frome, it wasn't worth the time to go and search red out - the difference between untaxed red and taxed white is huge, but not enough to pay for a few extra miles in the car and my time driving

 

Amongst the first to do it will be those who need to replace their kit in the next 12 months anyway, then the new start ups will spot the opening, then the big marina's will realise that all their boats are leaving to somewhere that has diesel...

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3 hours ago, Horace42 said:

....interesting....is there a 'diesel conditioning'  product available that can be used to boost old diesel?

I've got a 5 gal drum full of diesel about 15 years old......

 

So have I and its as bright as the day it was bought, pre bio

2 hours ago, furnessvale said:

They are telling porkies!  I ran a diesel boat for some years.  I bought my diesel from the same sources as the marinas, consistently charged a penny or two less than the marinas, and consistently made a fair profit on my sales.

 

However, I do believe many canal retailers will stop selling when white comes along, as it would be noticeably dearer than garages.  Many customers will buy in jerry cans and decant into the boat tank with all the spillage problems that will cause. 

 

George

Many years ago before the split requirements the yards on the Broads sold red diesel for just a few pence less than white from the garage 

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21 hours ago, Athy said:

(snip). But, as our arrowroot friend hints, doesn't diesel "go off" after a certain length of time so that it is no longer combustible?

(snip)

 

On a ship restoration I'm involved with, the generators ran quite happily on diesel that was in the tank prior to 1986.

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4 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

On a ship restoration I'm involved with, the generators ran quite happily on diesel that was in the tank prior to 1986.

You are the second person to have made a similar point. I don't know where I got the idea from, but it was obviously wrong, so thank you for correcting my misapprehension.

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43 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

So have I and its as bright as the day it was bought, pre bio

Many years ago before the split requirements the yards on the Broads sold red diesel for just a few pence less than white from the garage 

In August 2001 the average (months) price for DERV (white diesel) was 77.54p per litre (Government statistics)

 

For Red diesel :

I paid 25p per litre in Campbletown marina on 31st August 2001

I paid 21.5p per litre in Tarbert marina on 30th August 2001

I paid 21p per litre in Troon marina on 26th July 2001

I paid 20p per litre in Holyhead Fish Dock on 22nd July 2001

 

Red diesel used to be around 1/4 to 1/3 rd of the price of road diesel

 

 

The average price for DERV (June 2019) is 133.76p per litre

And yet marina prices for red diesel seem to be around the 100p per litre mark

 

Are garages taking a lower margin or are marinas now making bigger margins ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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4 minutes ago, Athy said:

You are the second person to have made a similar point. I don't know where I got the idea from, but it was obviously wrong, so thank you for correcting my misapprehension.

However, I doubt that diesel with a bio content would last as long.

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PRESS STATEMENT:  HMRC ANNOUNCES CONSULTATION ON DEMISE OF RED DIESEL FOR PRIVATE PLEASURE CRAFT

 

Issue date: 17th July 2019



IWA is appealing to boaters and boatyard operators to respond to an HMRC consultation following the announcement that private pleasure craft in the UK will be prohibited from using red diesel.  The consultation, about the likely timescales required for implementing the change, follows the statement in the Spring Budget that HMRC would seek evidence on the impact of the government’s proposal to comply with the judgment made last year by the European Court of Justice. 

 

IWA met with HMRC officials late last year, along with British Marine, the Cruising Association, and the Royal Yachting Association; with all four boating representative bodies putting the case that a change to using white diesel would create insurmountable problems for boat users and the industry.

The implementation of the ruling would mean the end of the use of red diesel for any leisure boating.  Whilst red diesel could continue to be used for heating, it would have to be in a separate tank, and there would be no dispensation for any proportion of fuel used by the engine for generating heat and light.  Commercially operated boats would still be able to use red diesel, as would residential boaters with proof of fixed moorings, but boats without a home mooring who are continuously cruising would be required to use white diesel. 

 

IWA considers that it is not practical for most boats that use the inland waterways to have two tanks; that inappropriate modifications would raise safety concerns; and that many diesel suppliers would simply not supply both red and white diesel due to the costs of installing additional equipment.  IWA is particularly concerned that this change may encourage people to take measures that could adversely impact the environment and safety, such as increased use of generators in confined spaces or spillages from containers of fuel purchased away from the waterways.  IWA is also concerned that the increased costs faced by both boat owners and boatyard operators will make an already expensive pastime unaffordable to some existing boaters and to many potential new boaters. 

 

IWA will be taking up the offer from HMRC for further meetings during the consultation, and encourages all boating organisations, boatyards, diesel suppliers, and boat owners to respond to the consultation and provide evidence of the practical implications of the proposals. 

 

The consultation runs until 9th September and can be found on the Government website:  www.gov.uk/government/consultations/implementation-of-the-court-of-justice-of-the-european-union-cjeu-judgment-on-diesel-fuel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft

 

ENDS

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4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That is just their schtick. 

 

If all suppliers of red diesel simply stopped selling fuel all narrowboats would overnight become unusable, the value of boats would fall through the floor and their business model of the marina owners flogging moorings at £3k a year each would evaporate. I predict this will not happen, a few red diesel sellers WILL set up selling white at say £1.70 a litre. A proportion of boaters will twart about bringing road diesel in cans but the (fewer) canalside retailers who will switch to white will be doing a handsome and profitable trade selling it to boaters not so stupid as to waste hours of time and effort that could be spent boating, moving fuel in tiny batches from petrol stations into the boat in order to save £3 a day on fuel costs. 

 

 

An utterly trivial sum in relation to the overall cost of boating.

 

 

When we were trapped on the Lancaster canal during the drought the only way to obtain diesel of any sort was a trip to the filling station. (The BWML pump at Galgate was not then as user friendly as it is now)  I couldn't believe at first that all the diesel engine boat owners were doing this, then I remembered that most boats on that canal never go anywhere and the rest maybe an occasional trip down to the pub.  

 

Now, I look around our marina and notice how few boats I have seen leave their moorings for any length of time.

 

I'd be concerned, in a white diesel scenario, that creating a big disincentive to buy fuel at the marina, ie the price, could lead to most folk preferring an occasional  trip in the car with a couple of jerry cans.  Meanwhile the number of suppliers of canalside diesel dwindles away and those that do sell it have to charge a ridiculous price.

 

I don't know about the extra cost being trivial, at £1.70 for example, I reckon my annual running costs would increase by £400-500.  (In any case, boat owners are notorious for getting worked up about minor expenses whilst ignoring the major ones.)

 

As I said before, this would hit Mr and Mrs Bigyot and their children Ivor and Iona very hard indeed and they are the folk with the money you need to lobby MP's these days.  

 

  

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

As I said before, this would hit Mr and Mrs Bigyot and their children Ivor and Iona very hard indeed and they are the folk with the money you need to lobby MP's these days. 

 

Yep, a friend of mine has a SunSeeker with turbocharged Caterpillar diesels. He reckons at full chat they drink 80 litres an HOUR!

 

EACH!!!!!

 

We have it easy in comparison don'tcher think?

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1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yep, a friend of mine has a SunSeeker with turbocharged Caterpillar diesels. He reckons at full chat they drink 80 litres an HOUR!

 

EACH!!!!!

 

We have it easy in comparison don'tcher think?

When we had the Fairline (Twin 6 cylinder Volvo 200s Turbo's) we could achieve 1.25 miles per gallon at 25 mph so just over 20 gallons per hour (100 litres per hour)

 

I'd have thought Big caterpillars would have been more !

 

My current boat (with twin Ford 6-cylinder 120hp) uses 10+ litres per hour at  5 knots

At 2600RPM (WoT) its about 45 litres per hour

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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When we had the Fairline (Twin 6 cylinder Volvo 200s Turbo's) we could achieve 1.25 miles per gallon at 25 mph so just over 20 gallons per hour (100 litres per hour)

 

I'd have thought Big caterpillars would have been more !

 

My current boat (with twin Ford 6-cylinder 120hp) uses 10+ litres per hour at  5 knots

At 2600RPM (WoT) its about 45 litres per hour

What you need is a few solar panels....no need for those big diesels.....

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24 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

My response to HMRC:

 

"Dear Mr Satchell,

 
I would like to express my concerns at the unintended impacts the planned phasing out of the current system of paying duty on diesel for craft on canals and rivers.  As a boater, I am likely to lose out personally in financial terms as I currently declare a split regarding the fuel I put in my boat, with the propulsion part paying the full level of duty and the domestic part paid at red diesel rate.  I am aware that lots of boaters are unhappy at this as it seems unfair that the vast majority of boaters will end up paying full duty on their domestic fuel, simply because it's not practicable to install two seperate fuel tanks.
 
However, I have other concerns.  When these changes come in, I expect the majority of canalside and riverside fuel suppliers will stop stocking red diesel as these are small businesses and it won't be economic for them to offer both, with the additional costs they would incur.  I would also expect plenty of sellers to close as they wouldn't be able to complete on price with big roadside petrol stations. 
 
This would have 2 main impacts:
 
1.  With the loss of available red diesel direct to boats, commercial operators wouldn't be able to access red diesel and would be forced to use white diesel, thus affecting the viability and profitability of their businesses.
2.  With existing waterside fuel sellers disappearing, and with cost savings in mind too, boaters would likely start trekking from their boats on foot, along busy trunk roads to buy diesel from roadside petrol stations, filling jerry cans.  This is in itself hazardous and it also raises the likelihood of spillage of fuel into canals and rivers, causing increased pollution incidents.
 
Further to this, the additional costs of diesel, along with reduced availability could easily have a negative influence on boating generally, putting people off boating.  The regeneration of our canal network over the last 50 years or so has been nothing short of a miracle and should be treasured by all.  Risking this success in order to bring us in line with the rest of Europe seems narrow-sighted and fraught with danger.  The viability of European canals is very different to ours.  Over there, commercial freight haulage on canals and rivers is alive and kicking so there is little or no risk to the future of those waterways due to diesel cost.  Over here, it's different.  Our canals are overwhelmingly populated with leisure boaters.  These people do it for the enjoyment.  If their costs go up and they are always worrying about where they can get fuel from, that enjoyment is reduced.  The brings the risk of them abandoning the canals and that's a step back to what happened to the canals during the first half of the 20th Century.  Please think hard before you allow that to happen."

Have you sent it yet?  Typo in last sentence of second para. Sub compete for complete.

Also, sub This for The at start of penultimate sentence.

Edited by dor
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21 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would suggest that fuel suppliers (particularly on the Cut) will not turn over enough to justify the cost of  doubling up and installing second tanks, pumps etc.

They will change over 100% to White, so the option of duty-free red for 'domestic use' will not even be available.

 

Little point on boaters fitting a second tank if they cannot source the fuel to fill it.

But please mr,  my boat has twin tanks and seperate supplies from new so I can comply with the european empire  :D

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16 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

But please mr,  my boat has twin tanks and seperate supplies from new so I can comply with the european empire  :D

But can you comply with the planned EU move to ban the disposal of 'grey' water directly overboard - it must be held in a tank and emptied as per 'toilet (Black) water pump-out ?

 

(Already introduced in Turkey & Greek waters)

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29 minutes ago, dor said:

Have you sent it yet?  Typo in last sentence of second para. Sub compete for complete.

Also, sub This for The at start of penultimate sentence.

Too late!  I don't mind much though, it means it's clearly my own words and not a copy and paste.

I'm sure not all boaters agree with what I've said and maybe the impacts won't be as bad as I predict.  It does worry me though.  The issue of it costing more per mile isn't the whole picture and, as boater's we should fight against anything which threatens the canals or the boating way of life.  The principle of taxing fuel doesn't really bother me.  Taxes are necessary but they should be fair and they should consider the wider impacts, both postive and negative.  We heavily tax things which are bad for us - eg tobacco.  We give tax breaks to things which as deemed to be good - eg charities.  CRT is a charity so clearly the state accepts that preseving the canals is a good thing.  That being the case, HMRC, as a branch of the state should not be working to undermine this.  UK canals are not like mainland Europe canals and shouldn't be treated as such.  I'm sure that's ultimately why we got the fuel duty derogation in the first place.

 

Edited by doratheexplorer
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14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But can you comply with the planned EU move to ban the disposal of 'grey' water directly overboard - it must be held in a tank and emptied as per 'toilet (Black) water pump-out ?

 

(Already introduced in Turkey & Greek waters)

I actualy could on this boat luckily. It has a numpty pumpout tank which I would use for grey instead of black water and fit a proper boat bog in its place. I even have a flag pole holder to fly the empires flag, or that of their army colours when they also form their army.

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Adding fuel to the fire, today it was reported that a parliamentary group has decided that increasing the bio content of fuel from 5% to 10% is a "no brainer" in light of the increase in CO2 emissions from new road vehicles, due to the flight from diesel to petrol. I guess it will increase cases of bug in our fuel whatever colour.

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But can you comply with the planned EU move to ban the disposal of 'grey' water directly overboard - it must be held in a tank and emptied as per 'toilet (Black) water pump-out ?

 

(Already introduced in Turkey & Greek waters)

We hired on the Canal d Midi probably 15 years ago and it had a grey water tank but once full it just overflowed into the cana, and did it stink, O and the toilets were sea toilets discharging straight into the canal.

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8 hours ago, Horace42 said:

....interesting....is there a 'diesel conditioning'  product available that can be used to boost old diesel?

I've got a 5 gal drum full of diesel about 15 years old......

 

 

4 hours ago, Athy said:

You are the second person to have made a similar point. I don't know where I got the idea from, but it was obviously wrong, so thank you for correcting my misapprehension.

 

38 minutes ago, Detling said:

Adding fuel to the fire, today it was reported that a parliamentary group has decided that increasing the bio content of fuel from 5% to 10% is a "no brainer" in light of the increase in CO2 emissions from new road vehicles, due to the flight from diesel to petrol. I guess it will increase cases of bug in our fuel whatever colour.

No, there isnt a conditioning agent that will get you back to pristine diesel.

The problem with old diesel is that although it burns well in the combustion chamber, it is possible that you may not be able to get it there!

When you buy diesel, it contains a complex blend of carbon chains that the refinery can get away with dumping in the diesel pool (or to use its refinery name...gas oil). This will be a mixture of Paraffins, iso paraffins, olefins, napthenics and aromatics (PIONA). The paraffins give the diesels its Cetane number which is the thing that refers to how combustible it is. The paraffins do not change on ageing so it will still burn the same. There are however a few properties that are vital to how you can use the diesel, ie cloud point and pour point. These are a function of the molecular weight and other such stuff. The diesel will be fine when you buy it but on ageing, olefins can cross link and form much longer higher molecular weight chains which then degrade the cloud and pour points......to the extent that these heavy chains will solidify at cold winter temperatures and form a white coloured wax. IIRC, didn't @Alan de Enfield post some pictures of his tractor primary fuel filter totally waxed up last winter?  Was this old fuel?

Yes, the diesel will run the engine but if you have any sophisticated kit, it may not work - that's why the refinery have specifications on the fuel they sell.

Throw bio-diesel in the mix and then all bets are off as shelf life will significantly decrease.

If I had a load of 5 year old diesel I would try and blend it off say 20%/80% with decent fuel but only in the summer. Good diesel should make it down to -20°C without waxing but old diesel might not.

10% bio diesel in our fuel doesnt sound like a good idea for boats. Fine for cars with a fast turnover of fuel but not when you have 100L sitting in your tank for a year or so.

 

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