UK to Comply With EU Ruling on Red Diesel.

[ditchcrawler]

This is my reply to their consultation questions, yet to be emailed to them so if you see any glaring bits missing please tell me

Questions for diesel fuelled craft users and owners.doc

[Dr Bob]

21 hours ago, Graham Davis said:

You "might" be able to remove the dye but you cannot remove the chemical tracer now added.

4A molecular sieve (a zeolite) was the way to get the red dye out (that was the way in the 90's). Not a clue what chemical tracers are now used. When did they start to be added?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Dr Bob said:

4A molecular sieve (a zeolite) was the way to get the red dye out (that was the way in the 90's). Not a clue what chemical tracers are now used. When did they start to be added?

When the dye removing / bleaching chemicals became available on ebay.

[Dr Bob]

25 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

This is my reply to their consultation questions, yet to be emailed to them so if you see any glaring bits missing please tell me

Questions for diesel fuelled craft users and owners.doc 25.5 kB · 4 downloads

Very good DC.

For question 14, you could guess how much you are going to spill   (only joking)

 

For question 17, your answer is more about cost than availability. Is it worth adding a bit that says that one scenario is that a large percentage of canal side fuel resalers will no longer sell fuel and thus the main difficultly may be that fuel will not be readily available.

 

Having posted your response, would you be willing for others (ie me) to copy it and modify for my use? It is very good.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Very good DC.

For question 14, you could guess how much you are going to spill   (only joking)

 

For question 17, your answer is more about cost than availability. Is it worth adding a bit that says that one scenario is that a large percentage of canal side fuel resalers will no longer sell fuel and thus the main difficultly may be that fuel will not be readily available.

 

Having posted your response, would you be willing for others (ie me) to copy it and modify for my use? It is very good.

I too would be interested in using it as a template.

[Dr Bob]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When the dye removing / bleaching chemicals became available on ebay.

When was that? Curious to know!

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

When was that? Curious to know!

I cannot remember, sometimes yesterday seems like a year ago.

 

T'would be several tears ago tho'.

 

There is a thread about it 'Piston heads' which dates from 2004

 

2014 article about the new 'tracer' being included.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-30104476

Edited July 21, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Dr Bob]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I cannot remember, sometimes yesterday seems like a year ago.

 

T'would be several tears ago tho'.

 

There is a thread about it 'Piston heads' which dates from 2004

 

2014 article about the new 'tracer' being included.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-30104476

Ta.

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I cannot remember, sometimes yesterday seems like a year ago.

 

T'would be several tears ago tho'.

 

There is a thread about it 'Piston heads' which dates from 2004

 

2014 article about the new 'tracer' being included.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-30104476

 

£80m a year in lost taxes?!!!!

 

1/3rd in NI and 2/3 on the mainland, it says. To shift that sort of volume it must be getting sold retail I reckon. I wonder if I've ever bought any inadvertantly and if so, what defence could be put up given the fuel will be white in colour. 

 

I also wonder if the previous owner of my van ever used it, and if that is no defence this seems a good reason never to buy a second hand diesel vehicle.  

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

£80m a year in lost taxes?!!!!

 

1/3rd in NI and 2/3 on the mainland, it says. To shift that sort of volume it must be getting sold retail I reckon. I wonder if I've ever bought any inadvertantly and if so, what defence could be put up given the fuel will be white in colour. 

 

I also wonder if the previous owner of my van ever used it, and if that is no defence this seems a good reason never to buy a second hand diesel vehicle.  

 

 

 

It used to be (many years ago when tractors were limited to 10 miles a week on red diesel) you were allowed 10% of red in the sample. If your log showed you had exceeded your mileage.

 

This was estimated by looking at colour charts of differing 'strengths' of  Red/White mix.

 

This was to allow for 'tainting' by a bit left in the tank, pipes etc.

 

I doubt they are as flexible these days.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, catweasel said:

I too would be interested in using it as a template.

Carry on, I just cut and paste the questions from the consultation document and then set them in italics.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

 

 

For question 17, your answer is more about cost than availability. Is it worth adding a bit that says that one scenario is that a large percentage of canal side fuel resalers will no longer sell fuel and thus the main difficultly may be that fuel will not be readily available.

 

Thought about that but all the marinas I buy from all have hire fleets and they will need to service them so I suspect they will also sell it to get a better return on the capital costs of pumps etc. I have spoke to one yard and they will have both red and white as they also have long term moorings, not sure if they are residential or not, they also run trip boats and sell to local plant users

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Thought about that but all the marinas I buy from all have hire fleets and they will need to service them so I suspect they will also sell it to get a better return on the capital costs of pumps etc. I have spoke to one yard and they will have both red and white as they also have long term moorings, not sure if they are residential or not, they also run trip boats and sell to local plant users

But Commercial use (hire boats etc) can still use fully rebated 'RED' diesel.

If they want to sell to passing pleasure boats they will have to install completely duplicate facilities, tanks, pumps etc to sell white.

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But Commercial use (hire boats etc) can still use fully rebated 'RED' diesel.

If they want to sell to passing pleasure boats they will have to install completely duplicate facilities, tanks, pumps etc to sell white.

I don't think hire boats can.

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I don't think hire boats can.

I think they can - the whole consultation is written around "Private Pleasure Craft"

 

In 2018, the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) ruled that the UK’s taxation rules for diesel used in private pleasure craft contravened the Fuel Marker Directive. 

 

I'm sure that when I initially rad thru it it said that hire craft were excluded - I'll read thru it all again.

 

Edit to add;

 

Being 'commercial boats' the fuel boats, the hotel boats, and the floating 'shop boats' would be able to use RED diesel.

 

Commercial use 
 
3.6 No changes are planned to the current position that commercial craft are able to use red diesel for propulsion and on-board non-propulsion use.

 

Mixed use – commercial with occasional private use and vice versa 
 
3.7 A craft may have mixed use.  For example, they may be predominantly for commercial use with some private pleasure use or vice versa.  Currently, these vessels may use red diesel, for their commercial use, but must pay the additional duty on fuel used for private pleasure journeys.  While red diesel may be used for commercial journeys, the government intends to require craft that are used for private pleasure to be fuelled only with white diesel for private pleasure trips.  This means operators would have to drain and flush the fuel tank and refuel with white diesel before any private pleasure use.  However, this would not be required when changing use from private to commercial use.   
   

Edited July 21, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think they can - the whole consultation is written around "Private Pleasure Craft"

 

In 2018, the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) ruled that the UK’s taxation rules for diesel used in private pleasure craft contravened the Fuel Marker Directive. 

 

I'm sure that when I initially rad thru it it said that hire craft were excluded - I'll read thru it all again.

From the RYA web site https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/regulations/Pages/red-diesel.aspx

 

What is a “private pleasure craft”?

The definition of “private pleasure craft” for the purposes of the Energy Products Directive and the purchase of red diesel in the UK is defined in the Directive as:-

“Any craft used by its owner or the natural or legal person who enjoys its use either through hire or through any other means, for other than commercial purposes and in particular other than for the carriage of passengers or goods or for the supply of services for consideration or for the purposes of public authorities”

 

And from the HMRC site https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-notice-554-fuel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft-and-for-private-pleasure-flying/excise-notice-554-fuel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft-and-for-private-pleasure-flying

 

4.4 What if I operate a boat club or hire, lease or lend boats to third parties?

Boat clubs and hire companies, such as those who offer boating holidays, may ‘self-declare’ on behalf of the person hiring/using the boat, if they can’t reasonably be expected to estimate the proportion of fuel which may be used for propulsion during the period of hire. We accept that the club/company/owner of the vessel may be better placed to know this and make an accurate declaration on their behalf.

The owner may simplify the system of declarations for each boat and period of hire, in the same manner as described at paragraph 4.2, provided there’s a clear audit trail between the hire contract and the fuel provided to the customer during the period of hire.

The owner may account for the duty due on behalf of the customer/club member or charge them duty at each fuel supply transaction, depending on the circumstances of the hire, for example, many holiday vessels are hired for a one-off payment which includes the cost of fuel to be used during the hire period, so duty should be factored into that price.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

“Any craft used by its owner or the natural or legal person who enjoys its use either through hire or through any other means, for other than commercial purposes

I would argue that this says that renting out your boat (not used by yourself) is for commercial purposes

 

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

4.4 What if I operate a boat club or hire, lease or lend boats to third parties?

Boat clubs and hire companies, such as those who offer boating holidays, may ‘self-declare’...…………….

This would appear to be with regard to the current situation of self-declaration. I don't know how that would play out in the consultation.

 

 

 

Again, I would argue that if the hire companies are paying / reclaiming VAT that would make them a commercial operation.

 

the RYA have a very good and active legal team which will no doubt work on behalf of 'lumpy water boats', I wonder who will take up the reins for the Inland waterway boaters IWA ? NABO, NBTA, etc etc 

[frangar]

34 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

the RYA have a very good and active legal team which will no doubt work on behalf of 'lumpy water boats', I wonder who will take up the reins for the Inland waterway boaters IWA ? NABO, NBTA, etc etc 

Would be ironic if it was the NBTA given how they are campaigning for their members not to ever actually travel....

Edited July 21, 2019 by frangar

[Chewbacka]

22 minutes ago, frangar said:

Would be ironic if it was the NBTA given how they are campaigning for their members not to ever actually travel....

If they ban red in the propulsion tank and I accidentally fill with red then can I ask crt for a mooring extension period to last until I have used all the red in my tank in my little diesel boiler??   Might take a year if I am careful................

Edited July 21, 2019 by Chewbacka

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would argue that this says that renting out your boat (not used by yourself) is for commercial purposes

 

Again, I would argue that if the hire companies are paying / reclaiming VAT that would make them a commercial operation. 

No question that hire boat companies are commercal operations. But use of a hired boat by a private individual on holiday is leisure use, and so currently subject to the duty for the proportion of fuel used for propulsion, and if/when the judgement is implemented, will be required to use white diesel for all engines, heaters etc fed from the propulsion fuel tank.

[David Mack]

On 20/07/2019 at 16:17, dmr said:

For me the saddest thing (apart from having to find another £1000 per year for fuel) is the potential loss of the fuel boats, there are not many places where historic vehicles are still in daily use doing a real job.

 

Why would this lead to a loss of fuel boats? They could change over to selling white only - the smaller tanks have a higher turnover than larger land-based installations, so traces of red would be removed quicker. Or a second tank and pump could be added to allow them to sell red and white. Their own propulsion engines would continue to run on red anyway.

[Chris Williams]

Are we really likely to see the Revenue Men dipping fuel tanks on boats?  You remember what used to happen to Revenue Men in the good old days of Piracy.

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

Are we really likely to see the Revenue Men dipping fuel tanks on boats?

No.  But a fuel sample might be added on to the BSS test ...

[Jennifer McM]

 

 

I've not read all of this thread, so this might have already been posted. (I know the survey isn't for private boats)

 

https://www.britishmarine.co.uk/News/2019/July/HMRCs-Consultation-on-Red-Diesel-now-open

 

Quote

HMRC has this week announced the long-anticipated consultation into the use of red diesel in the UK. After the EU ruled that the UK could no longer legally supply red diesel, with its lowered tax benefit the Government has sought to understand what impact this may have in the UK economy. 

The eight week consultation specifically looks into the use of red diesel in ‘private pleasure craft’ but also includes within its scope “residential boats, continuous cruisers, commercial use, mixed use (commercial with occasional private use and visa versa) and petrol powered private pleasure crafts”. 

Using the information collected from the Call for Evidence, HMRC will evaluate with the industry how best to introduce a transition from red to white diesel.

HMRC has posed a number of specific questions for those supplying fuel as well as those users or owners of diesel fuelled craft (including hire boat operators).

British Marine would therefore like to hear from members who supply or operate vessels that use red diesel by completing a short online survey, no later than Friday 30 August 2019, to help shape an industry response. The online survey replicates all those questions posed by HMRC. Members are encouraged to provide as much information (where relevant) in each of the questions. 

British Marine will update its members accordingly. However if any British Marine members would like any further information, please contact Brain Clark at bclark@britishmarine.co.uk.

For all information from HMRC (including the Call for Evidence itself) click here.  

 

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Jennifer McM said:

 

However if any British Marine members would like any further information, please contact Brain Clark at bclark@britishmarine.co.uk.

 

 

 

He sounds very intelligent!