UK to Comply With EU Ruling on Red Diesel.

[Iain_S]

12 hours ago, dmr said:

It might be possible to run on heating oil if you add a lubricity additive, and maybe a cetane booster, both easily available. However three years ago a reputable boat yard sold us some bad diesel that I suspect was heating oil and it smoked very badly and significantly reduced the power output of the engine.

 

...............Dave

There are a few garages (mainly small independents) that get through an amazing quantity of heating oil ...

[dmr]

I used a little garage over the winter, there was often a little queue at the red pump, and it was set a little way back from the other pumps so the cashier could not actually see what the red was going into....maybe just a convenient co-incidence, though I never saw any going directly into a vehicle.

 

..............Dave

[TheBiscuits]

43 minutes ago, dmr said:

I used a little garage over the winter, there was often a little queue at the red pump, and it was set a little way back from the other pumps so the cashier could not actually see what the red was going into....maybe just a convenient co-incidence, though I never saw any going directly into a vehicle.

 

..............Dave

The old trick round Wigan was buy a petrol car, transplant a diesel engine into it,  forget to inform DVLA that you had swapped the engine and accidentally keep filling it with red diesel from the tanks at the coalmine.

 

The coppers didn't tend to stop and dip vehicles registeted with petrol engines ...

[carlt]

On 16/07/2019 at 16:26, frangar said:

Of course it will take ages for the traces of dye to go so now might be the time to get an IBC tank or two of red......who’s going to know that it’s not fuel in the tank from before they stopped you using red? 

 

I guess some laws are more worthy than others...

 

On 06/05/2013 at 17:52, frangar said:

...however I want to stay living on my boat and keep it all legal...I make sure I can pay for all that 1st and then see what I have left.

 

[frangar]

4 hours ago, carlt said:

 

I guess some laws are more worthy than others...

 

 

In my opinion yes they are....especially ones that come from Europe....thankfully we will soon be free of them. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by frangar

[carlt]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

....especially ones that come from Europe....

Well one thing we can be sure of is that the brextremists will not be getting rid of any indirect taxation whether it is from Europe or Mars and there will be no more subsidy from the public purse for things like the waterways as they pursue their ultra low direct taxation ideology. 

When the true cost of maintaining the canals is loaded onto the boater the "EU tax" on diesel will be a drop in the Ocean. 

[Alan de Enfield]

The RYA have said :

 

 

The Royal Yachting Association (RYA) issues prompt robust response
The RYA has said it will respond to the consultation in line with the policy on this issue agreed by its Cruising and Government Affairs Committee, setting out the many practical issues that implementation will bring and seeking a long transition period if the UK remains compelled to implement the judgement. This policy also urges government not to implement the CJEU judgement in the event of a no deal Brexit. The RYA has been part of a group of key stakeholders that HMRC has engaged with pre-consultation and a further meeting will be held shortly, which will provide the opportunity to reiterate our policy.

Boaters should experience no change in respect of their use of red diesel both in the UK and overseas until the UK government makes changes to existing legislation. The RYA will be lobbying for any new legislation to include a transition period of sufficient length to recognise that changes will need to be made to the supply system and that the marker dye in red diesel will be detectable in boat fuel systems for a considerable period of time after the commencement date of any change to the use of white diesel.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, carlt said:

Well one thing we can be sure of is that the brextremists will not be getting rid of any indirect taxation whether it is from Europe or Mars and there will be no more subsidy from the public purse for things like the waterways as they pursue their ultra low direct taxation ideology. 

When the true cost of maintaining the canals is loaded onto the boater the "EU tax" on diesel will be a drop in the Ocean. 

Agreed. We aint seen nothin' yet (forgive the double negative.)

[frangar]

5 hours ago, carlt said:

Well one thing we can be sure of is that the brextremists will not be getting rid of any indirect taxation whether it is from Europe or Mars and there will be no more subsidy from the public purse for things like the waterways as they pursue their ultra low direct taxation ideology. 

When the true cost of maintaining the canals is loaded onto the boater the "EU tax" on diesel will be a drop in the Ocean. 

I would be happier to pay tax on boat fuel if it or indeed a sensible proportion was used on the waterways rather than just going to fund a corrupt EU. In the same vein tax on motor vehicles should be reinvested in roads and other transportation. 

 

Btw do you have a filing system so you can find 6 year old forum posts when you feel that they might be useful to score points??..if so it’s possibly better than the forums own search facility....

[carlt]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

I would be happier to pay tax on boat fuel if it or indeed a sensible proportion was used on the waterways rather than just going to fund a corrupt EU. In the same vein tax on motor vehicles should be reinvested in roads and other transportation. 

 

Btw do you have a filing system so you can find 6 year old forum posts when you feel that they might be useful to score points??..if so it’s possibly better than the forums own search facility....

You seem not to understand our taxation system. 

The tax on fuel does not go to the EU it is merely an agreement to harmonise how we collect taxes. 

The EU does not tell the Isle of Man to put plastic pillows in its kipper packaging either, BTW, but sometimes it is easier to believe the myth than research the facts. 

 

Quoting what you may have said in the past that contradicts what you may say today is not point scoring but one wonders how you would feel about harmonising the license fees with the EU countries that charge much less than us (or charge nothing at all). 

 

[Chewbacka]

2 hours ago, frangar said:

I would be happier to pay tax on boat fuel if it or indeed a sensible proportion was used on the waterways rather than just going to fund a corrupt EU. In the same vein tax on motor vehicles should be reinvested in roads and other transportation. 

 

Btw do you have a filing system so you can find 6 year old forum posts when you feel that they might be useful to score points??..if so it’s possibly better than the forums own search facility....

We could ring fence all road fuel taxes for use only on the road system, whilst this would give us excellent roads it would further reduce money available for schools, nhs, etc, so either these would have to be cut, or other taxes would have to rise to cover the short fall.  How much more tax would you like to pay???

[Mike Todd]

3 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

We could ring fence all road fuel taxes for use only on the road system, whilst this would give us excellent roads it would further reduce money available for schools, nhs, etc, so either these would have to be cut, or other taxes would have to rise to cover the short fall.  How much more tax would you like to pay???

Much more likely result of ring fencing would be a reduction in fuel/road taxes to a level that matched current maintenance costs (let's forget about the capital investment as kit is too inconvenient for the suggestion) so that taxes would have to rise on other items to compensate or public services would have to be reduced even further - jut half a frigate to patrol Hormuz, for instance?

[dmr]

8 hours ago, carlt said:

Well one thing we can be sure of is that the brextremists will not be getting rid of any indirect taxation whether it is from Europe or Mars and there will be no more subsidy from the public purse for things like the waterways as they pursue their ultra low direct taxation ideology. 

When the true cost of maintaining the canals is loaded onto the boater the "EU tax" on diesel will be a drop in the Ocean. 

 

There will always be the property and water supply/removal income, so if the government no longer funded the canals I estimate boater contribution would need to double, or maybe treble, but then if CRT got rid of all the engagement officers and other non canal related staff and put all its resources into maintaining the canals its a price I would be willing to pay, though I realise that for many it would be difficult.

 

.............Dave

[dmr]

16 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

The old trick round Wigan was buy a petrol car, transplant a diesel engine into it,  forget to inform DVLA that you had swapped the engine and accidentally keep filling it with red diesel from the tanks at the coalmine.

 

The coppers didn't tend to stop and dip vehicles registeted with petrol engines ...

In all my years of driving I have only once seen customs and Excise out dipping diesel tanks, though I have heard they turn up at horse shows quite often,  so just how likely is it they they going to be out flagging down passing boats....after been sent on a training course to enable them to differentiate between the propulsion and heating tanks? I already have two fuel fillers (to the same tank) so will need to re-route one down to a little bottle of white diesel   

 

................Dave

[Momac]

7 minutes ago, dmr said:

In all my years of driving I have only once seen customs and Excise out dipping diesel tanks, though I have heard they turn up at horse shows quite often,  so just how likely is it they they going to be out flagging down passing boats....after been sent on a training course to enable them to differentiate between the propulsion and heating tanks? I already have two fuel fillers (to the same tank) so will need to re-route one down to a little bottle of white diesel   

 

................Dave

If I did put white diesel in, and bearing in mind I rarely let the tank go below half full, and given about one tank full of diesel used per year, how many years would it take before the fuel in the tank is no longer pink?

[dmr]

It will be a little bit pink for ever, though strictly at some stage there will be only one molecule of red dye left, and then when that goes it all white.

 

There is an urban myth that a loaf of bread in the fuel tank soaks up the dye and turns red into white, but other "secret" chemicals are also aledgedly added to the red.

 

If a boater has a white tank for propulsion and a red tank for heating and gets his pipes crossed are HMRC really going to fund a court case?.  For me the saddest thing (apart from having to find another £1000 per year for fuel) is the potential loss of the fuel boats, there are not many places where historic vehicles are still in daily use doing a real job.

 

..................Dave

[Graham Davis]

1 minute ago, dmr said:

It will be a little bit pink for ever, though strictly at some stage there will be only one molecule of red dye left, and then when that goes it all white.

 

There is an urban myth that a loaf of bread in the fuel tank soaks up the dye and turns red into white, but other "secret" chemicals are also aledgedly added to the red.

 

If a boater has a white tank for propulsion and a red tank for heating and gets his pipes crossed are HMRC really going to fund a court case?.  For me the saddest thing (apart from having to find another £1000 per year for fuel) is the potential loss of the fuel boats, there are not many places where historic vehicles are still in daily use doing a real job.

 

..................Dave

You "might" be able to remove the dye but you cannot remove the chemical tracer now added.

[GUMPY]

On Parglena, I fitted a new propulsion tank in 2004 slightly premature but I could see this coming, it is a very simple matter to switch the engine between tanks ( 2 valves) or the white tank can be drained into the red tank with no pumps by opening both valves.

So the only way to be sure what the engine is running on is to check the filter bowl, which the French customs used to do when they suspected illegal running.

[DRP]

On 16/07/2019 at 19:22, Keeping Up said:

Maybe the fact that Churchill specifically promised it to all inland craft in perpetuity, in recognition of those who went to Dunkirk, should count for something.

Sorry to come so late to this. Do you have a written reference for this, or even remember where you heard it.

 

Or have I missed someone posting confirmation?

[Keeping Up]

55 minutes ago, DRP said:

Sorry to come so late to this. Do you have a written reference for this, or even remember where you heard it.

 

Or have I missed someone posting confirmation?

I'm sorry, I don't. It is many years since I first heard it, and it seemed to be widespread common knowledge at the time.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

In all my years of driving I have only once seen customs and Excise out dipping diesel tanks, though I have heard they turn up at horse shows quite often,  so just how likely is it they they going to be out flagging down passing boats....after been sent on a training course to enable them to differentiate between the propulsion and heating tanks? I already have two fuel fillers (to the same tank) so will need to re-route one down to a little bottle of white diesel   

 

................Dave

I have not only seen them at Live Stock markets and horse events I have also seen the pulling vehicles into a layby and a motorway service areas but then I'm a country lad so probably went to quite a lot of these events 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

I'm sorry, I don't. It is many years since I first heard it, and it seemed to be widespread common knowledge at the time.

I remember hearing similar when my late dad had our family boat about 50 years ago. Never seen any real evidence though. My dad always wanted to know where his duty free petrol was! He eventually bought a 15hp Yamaha outboard that was designed to run on paraffin. 
I have been shouted down before for saying this, and no doubt will be again, but I think it is more likely that red diesel was used in carrying days on the cut after horses were retired, and the tradition simply carried over to private boats. 

[Mike Todd]

4 hours ago, dmr said:

In all my years of driving I have only once seen customs and Excise out dipping diesel tanks, though I have heard they turn up at horse shows quite often,  so just how likely is it they they going to be out flagging down passing boats....after been sent on a training course to enable them to differentiate between the propulsion and heating tanks? I already have two fuel fillers (to the same tank) so will need to re-route one down to a little bottle of white diesel   

 

................Dave

I know one pkace, in Cornwall, where they carry out checks regularly.  Multi agency.

[Graham Davis]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have not only seen them at Live Stock markets and horse events I have also seen the pulling vehicles into a layby and a motorway service areas but then I'm a country lad so probably went to quite a lot of these events 

Very common to see them around Welshpool Mart and others locally, and there is quite a busy "station" at Ross-on-Wye, at the end of the M50.

[Jess--]

we used to get pulled and dipped about twice a year for driving a battered transit

 

this was usually on the main road into skegness during peak holiday season, so I suspect that it was picked as a good spot to get vehicles that were not usually in the area.

There were usually a few vans parked up with fed up looking owners.