UK to Comply With EU Ruling on Red Diesel.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

His argument was that yes more speed equals more fuel consumed but a shorter journey time which exactly offsets the extra fuel used. 

Last Summer we went from Hull Marina to Wells-Next-Sea. A cruise of about 60 miles.

 

It took us 13 hours (at around 5 knots) and when we refueled it took just over 20 litres to top-off the tanks.

Later that evening as we sat on the pontoon a boat came along side to breast up (GRP Fairline - very smart), we got talking and he had left Hull Marina and made the same trip as us, he had taken under 3 hours and used over 250 litres of fuel.

 

We were running at displacement speed , he was 'full-chat' up on the plane.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

...........being an airline pilot in his day job I suspect he knew all about fuel consumption. 

Not trying to be argumentative but I don't follow the logic there.

I'm sure he (or the co-pilot) could observe the fuel gauges, but he would have had nothing to do with the calculation as to how much fuel was loaded, or the fuel consumption.

 

I would doubt that a 'train driver' would know how much diesel / electricity his train uses.

[Tecka]

16 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

His argument was that yes more speed equals more fuel consumed but a shorter journey time which exactly offsets the extra fuel used.  He was quite certain this was the case, and being an airline pilot in his day job I suspect he knew all about fuel consumption. 

 

If you earn the hourly rate of an airline pilot... not if you're a student...

 

Time doesn't have a fixed monetary value so this doesn't really hold up.

[Mike Todd]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Last Summer we went from Hull Marina to Wells-Next-Sea. A cruise of about 60 miles.

 

It took us 13 hours (at around 5 knots) and when we refueled it took just over 20 litres to top-off the tanks.

Later that evening as we sat on the pontoon a boat came along side to breast up (GRP Fairline - very smart), we got talking and he had left Hull Marina and made the same trip as us, he had taken under 3 hours and used over 250 litres of fuel.

 

We were running at displacement speed , he was 'full-chat' up on the plane.

 

 

Not trying to be argumentative but I don't follow the logic there.

I'm sure he (or the co-pilot) could observe the fuel gauges, but he would have had nothing to do with the calculation as to how much fuel was loaded, or the fuel consumption.

 

I would doubt that a 'train driver' would know how much diesel / electricity his train uses.

And the relationship between speed and fuel consumption is very non linear.

[WotEver]

56 minutes ago, Tecka said:

If you earn the hourly rate of an airline pilot... not if you're a student...

You’d be surprised at how little (comparatively) an airline pilot makes. A mate of mine was a captain with BA flying transatlantic. His basic wage was less than that of an assistant manager at our

local Sainsbury. 

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, WotEver said:

You’d be surprised at how little (comparatively) an airline pilot makes. A mate of mine was a captain with BA flying transatlantic. His basic wage was less than that of an assistant manager at our

local Sainsbury. 

 

I do get the impression airline pilots have had all their authority chipped away leaving them with only the responsibility. 

 

I fix boilers for them once in a while and like policemen these days, they often seem like they should still be wearing short trousers. 

 

 

Unusual to meet one in his or her 50s or 60s carrying the authority of age these days. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

And the relationship between speed and fuel consumption is very non linear.

But the relationship between revs and fuel consumption is mathematically linked 

 

This is the graph for my engines 

 

 

[Machpoint005]

17 hours ago, furnessvale said:

Since then, excise duty on white has barely risen, excise duty on red has risen annually at more than the rate of inflation and the base price of oil has risen dramatically.

 

The combination of those three factors has had the effect of closing the gap between white and red price to what you see today.

 

Would you like to think about the effect of Brexit on the crude oil price (the pound sterling is heading towards US dollar parity) since oil is still (and has always been) priced in dollars? It is my bet any 'benefit' of allowing boaters to use 'red' (which probably isn't going to happen anyway) will be wiped out several times over when we are paying say £2 to £3 a litre for diesel fuel of any colour. 

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Machpoint005
to clarify

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Would you like to think about the effect of Brexit on the crude oil price (the pound sterling is heading towards US dollar parity) since oil is still (and has always been) priced in dollars? It is my bet any 'benefit' of allowing boaters to use 'red' (which probably isn't going to happen anyway) will be wiped out several times over when we are paying say £2 to £3 a litre for diesel fuel of any colour. 

 

 

 

 

The pound is forecast to rise again - the longer term forecasts for the Euro are 'parity' with the US$.

 

Irrespective of 'crude price' we will still see White diesel price towards £2 on the cut.

 

If Current Red is priced at 110p.

 

It will now have full duty applied of 57.95p (instead of the current 11.14p) increasing the price by 46.81p

VAT on red diesel is currently 5%, White diesel is VAT at 20%

 

Deduct current duty levels and VAT rates and the base retail price of the diesel becomes 93.62p

 

Now add in full duty and the price becomes 151.57p.

Now add in the VAT element (yes VAT is charged on the fuel and the Duty) and the retail price of the white diesel on the cut becomes 189.08p / litre

 

Or, to put it another way = 60p / litre above 'the high street price'.

Or, to put it another way = 73% increase in price to boaters.

[mayalld]

On ‎16‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 16:41, Alan de Enfield said:

The questionnaire asks you to inform them of your anticipated time period to use all your current 'stock'.

Which is, of course, a very silly question indeed.

 

It is sensible, to avoid diesel bug, to top the tank up regularly.

 

so after a weekend out, we top up (say 15l in a 250l tank)

 

During a fortnight out, we would usually top up after a week (perhaps 60l), then top up again with 60l at the end.

 

So, let us look at a leisure boater who does 10 weekend trips early in the year, a fortnight away, then another 10 weekends.

 

At the end of Year 1, almost 17% of the diesel in the tank is still red.

At the end of Year 2, the tank is still nearly 3% red

[dor]

How is all this increase in diesel cost, red and white, going to affect the economy of diesel stoves?  I’ve been toying with the idea of replacing my Brunel SF stove with a Bubble, but with the prospect of much higher fuel costs it looks doubtful compared to the £20 a week I would spend on Excel in the winter.

[GUMPY]

5 minutes ago, dor said:

How is all this increase in diesel cost, red and white, going to affect the economy of diesel stoves?  I’ve been toying with the idea of replacing my Brunel SF stove with a Bubble, but with the prospect of much higher fuel costs it looks doubtful compared to the £20 a week I would spend on Excel in the winter.

I took my Old Dutch diesel stove out 12 years ago and replaced it with a multifuel stove, the amount I saved on fuel, even burning phurnicite, in the first year paid for the new stove. Both stoves on 24/7 October to March so no change in usage.

[Dr Bob]

14 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

F-i-L used to say the composition of white diesel they supplied varied through out the year, while red diesel was the same all year around. The white diesel had anti-waxing additives which started in October and stopped in March as turnover was high but can't remember what he said about red. He was not surprised however that Webastos ran better on white than red. 

The BP refinery in Grangemouth made most of the road diesel and heating fuel for Scotland. The refinery made one grade of gas oil,  batch blended into the final product storage tanks and then pumped to the distribution plant where a procession of BP, Shell, Texaco, Esso, Tesco, Asda etc road tankers came in and filled up. The basic fuel was the same for everyone. Each different company had its own additive package added at the road tanker loading stage. Red diesel was done the same way from the same final product tanks.

The gas oil was changed for the seasons. Mid September it changed from summer grade to intermediate, and from mid october to a winter grade. The difference was in the composition of the gas oil in the final product tanks to have less waxing components in winter, ie less higher mol weight materials. I guess the individual companies had different additive packages for winter/summer. From looking at the final product details, I reckon the Grangemouth gas oil was better in winter...more paraffinic stuff.

Contrast that to the gasoline (petrol). In the winter the refinery can put far more butane in the gasoline (ie 14% ish rather than 7%). Butane has a low density so you are getting less bang for you buck in the winter.

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The pound is forecast to rise again - the longer term forecasts for the Euro are 'parity' with the US$.

 

Irrespective of 'crude price' we will still see White diesel price towards £2 on the cut.

 

If Current Red is priced at 110p.

 

It will now have full duty applied of 57.95p (instead of the current 11.14p) increasing the price by 46.81p

VAT on red diesel is currently 5%, White diesel is VAT at 20%

 

Deduct current duty levels and VAT rates and the base retail price of the diesel becomes 93.62p

 

Now add in full duty and the price becomes 151.57p.

Now add in the VAT element (yes VAT is charged on the fuel and the Duty) and the retail price of the white diesel on the cut becomes 189.08p / litre

 

Or, to put it another way = 60p / litre above 'the high street price'.

Or, to put it another way = 73% increase in price to boaters.

Is anyone paying 110p for red?

[Momac]

16 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Why?

 

It's the same stuff with a dye and tracer added to it.

My friend  says his JCB uses less white than red for the same work.

He is convinced white diesel is a better fuel.

It remains to be seen whether boats run better or consume less in real life conditions.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

50 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Is anyone paying 110p for red?

Yes

 

Our Marina is 105p and someone recently commented theirs was 110p

 

Just one Inland marina's price (via Google)

 

Domestic / Commercial	80.85 pence per litre (maximum 100 litres into cans)
100% Propulsion	130.00 pence per litre.
60:40 split	110.34 pence per litre.*

Edited July 18, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[doratheexplorer]

34 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes

 

Our Marina is 105p and someone recently commented theirs was 110p

 

Just one Inland marina's price (via Google)

 

Domestic / Commercial	80.85 pence per litre (maximum 100 litres into cans)
100% Propulsion	130.00 pence per litre.
60:40 split	110.34 pence per litre.*

That's 80p for red.  110p for split.

[frangar]

Well I’ve replied to the consultation.....let’s hope we can get the message across that this is bad news if they implement it! 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

That's 80p for red.  110p for split.

The price they are currently actually paying is 110p, for the fuel in their boat - unless they are non-moving liveaboards claiming 100% domestic, or, some other split.

In future they will be actually paying getting on for 190p for their fuel.

[doratheexplorer]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The price they are currently actually paying is 110p, for the fuel in their boat - unless they are non-moving liveaboards claiming 100% domestic, or, some other split.

In future they will be actually paying getting on for 190p for their fuel.

But if the red price is 80p then your calulations for fuel duty are wrong, since they would already be paying full duty for 60% of the fuel.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

But if the red price is 80p then your calulations for fuel duty are wrong, since they would already be paying full duty for 60% of the fuel.

Ah - right I see what you mean.

Yes you are correct, I'll re-work them.

Cheers.

 

 

Reworked figures :

 

For 'Domestic use' under the 'new rules' the price for white diesel would be 148p per litre, so the increase in cost would be 68p per litre.

On the propulsion element the price also increase to 148 per litre although previously we were paying the full duty, VAT is now applied at 20% rather than 5%. An increase of 18p per litre.

 

The price 'now' irrespective of use is 148p per litre

Edited July 18, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[doratheexplorer]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ah - right I see what you mean.

Yes you are correct, I'll re-work them.

Cheers.

I knew that maths gcse would come in useful eventually

[Phil.]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

Well I’ve replied to the consultation.....let’s hope we can get the message across that this is bad news if they implement it! 

Has anyone bothered to ask why they are doing a consultation, the result of which won't be fully interpreted, until after we have left the jurisdiction of the body enforcing said regulations. If so, what was the reply.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Phil.

[cuthound]

On 17/07/2019 at 10:02, Horace42 said:

....interesting....is there a 'diesel conditioning'  product available that can be used to boost old diesel?

I've got a 5 gal drum full of diesel about 15 years old......

 

 

Old red diesel produced before the introduction of bio content should be ok provided ithas been kept in drums or tanks free of water (condensation) to prevent diesel bug.

 

Several years ago, when the legal diesel sulphur content was reduced to 0.1%, I managed a project to make sure the red diesel in BT's 6,500 odd diesel generators was compliant, by getting a company to remove the old diesel, mix it with ultra low sulphur diesel (0.001% sulphur), add a lubricity additive (so the older engines could run on it) and sell it back to BT.

 

Some tanks still contained diesel with 5% sulpur content!!!, so must have be been 1970's vintage or earlier ?. The standby gennies still ran on it ok though.

 

That said I wouldn't want to run a modern common rail diesel car engine on old diesel.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Phil. said:

Has anyone bothered to ask why they are doing a consultation, the result of which won't be fully interpreted, until after we have left the jurisdiction of the body enforcing said regulations. If so, what was the reply.

 

This question is answered earlier in the thread I think. The outcome has already been decided, so the consultation is simply to marshal support for the decision already made, should any be received. Consultation is mandatory, but abiding by the results is not. But you knew that already I bet!

 

 

[furnessvale]

20 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Interestingly, the ones that would have it easiest are the fuel boats!  £120 buys them a new shiny IBC that they get white diesel pumped in, and dispose of the old IBC that had red diesel in.  Steam clean the metered pump and the dispensing nozzle, new hoses as it's not worth faffing about with consumable items and Robert is your Father's brother ...

 

Compared to trying to clean or replace large scale bunded storage and fixed dispensing pumps, this is peanuts.

Which fuel boats use an IBC?

 

An IBC holds 1000 litres, not much use to a bulk supplier.  A good single sale can be 400+ litres.  As a comparison, the tanks I fitted to Alton hold 5500 litres but I still needed to be met by tankers away from home base to keep topped up.

 

George