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UK to Comply With EU Ruling on Red Diesel.


Alan de Enfield

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2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

We hired on the Canal d Midi probably 15 years ago and it had a grey water tank but once full it just overflowed into the cana, and did it stink, O and the toilets were sea toilets discharging straight into the canal.

A strange lot - a wonderful country spoiled by the people.

 

We had a factory just outside Paris and I was responsible for some aspects of the business and some of their multi-national customers.

 

On one visit out into the 'sticks' we were early so decided to pop into a 'transport cafe' for a cup-of-tea.

Needing a Pee, I followed the signs to 'out the back' and ended up in a fully tiled (huge) shower room, but no sign of urinals or toilets.

I then noticed a rope hanging from the ceiling with a 'gymnasts ring' at the end of it - there were a couple of 'footprints' moulded into the floor either side of the drain.

 

It suddenly 'clicked' what it was all for - the drain was quite a small diameter, but then I noticed a stick leaning up in the corner of the room - obviously used for chasing the turd down the hole. 

You then think - I know where the term getting the sh11ty end of the stick comes from.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yep, a friend of mine has a SunSeeker with turbocharged Caterpillar diesels. He reckons at full chat they drink 80 litres an HOUR!

 

EACH!!!!!

 

We have it easy in comparison don'tcher think?

 

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When we had the Fairline (Twin 6 cylinder Volvo 200s Turbo's) we could achieve 1.25 miles per gallon at 25 mph so just over 20 gallons per hour (100 litres per hour)

 

I'd have thought Big caterpillars would have been more !

 

My current boat (with twin Ford 6-cylinder 120hp) uses 10+ litres per hour at  5 knots

At 2600RPM (WoT) its about 45 litres per hour

Years ago I had the thrill of piloting a Sealine F36 flat out - no idea what speed we were doing but the skipper reckoned we were consuming 20 gallons per hour - per engine..!

 

However, he assured me that once these boats get on the plane it doesn't matter much how fast you go the mpg stays about the same, (around 0.75 mpg in the case of the Sealine) so no reason not to go as fast as possible...

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In August 2001 the average (months) price for DERV (white diesel) was 77.54p per litre (Government statistics)

 

For Red diesel :

I paid 25p per litre in Campbletown marina on 31st August 2001

I paid 21.5p per litre in Tarbert marina on 30th August 2001

I paid 21p per litre in Troon marina on 26th July 2001

I paid 20p per litre in Holyhead Fish Dock on 22nd July 2001

 

Red diesel used to be around 1/4 to 1/3 rd of the price of road diesel

 

 

The average price for DERV (June 2019) is 133.76p per litre

And yet marina prices for red diesel seem to be around the 100p per litre mark

 

Are garages taking a lower margin or are marinas now making bigger margins ?

Since then, excise duty on white has barely risen, excise duty on red has risen annually at more than the rate of inflation and the base price of oil has risen dramatically.

 

The combination of those three factors has had the effect of closing the gap between white and red price to what you see today.

 

 George

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10 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

However, he assured me that once these boats get on the plane it doesn't matter much how fast you go the mpg stays about the same, (around 0.75 mpg in the case of the Sealine) so no reason not to go as fast as possible...

Hmmmm I'm not sure about that.

 

They will normally get up onto the plane at around 15-17 knots and once on the plane (over the hump) you can throttle back a little and maintain the same speed.

 

If you want to increase speed then you need more Revs / Power and as power developed is approximately proportional to the cube of the engine revs, fuel consumed is also proportional to the cube of engine revs.

 

The more revs you have, the faster you go*, the more fuel you consume.

 

* Planing boats.

 

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8 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Since then, excise duty on white has barely risen, excise duty on red has risen annually at more than the rate of inflation and the base price of oil has risen dramatically.

 

The combination of those three factors has had the effect of closing the gap between white and red price to what you see today.

 

 George

The gap has certainly closed, for whatever reason. About two years ago I was thinking of just buying white from Asda when on the marina. Then I found somebody who would supply without any propulsion tax so worth buying red. 
I recall when red was about 30p litre, and by my estimate has trebled in 20 years.

Edited by Guest
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4 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Since then, excise duty on white has barely risen, excise duty on red has risen annually at more than the rate of inflation and the base price of oil has risen dramatically.

 

The combination of those three factors has had the effect of closing the gap between white and red price to what you see today.

 

 George

Although I am still paying around 50p for "Gas-Oil" (Red Diesel) at home.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Although I am still paying around 50p for "Gas-Oil" (Red Diesel) at home.

I wish! Currently pay about 85p  for domestic (almost a pound 2 years ago.)

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Although I am still paying around 50p for "Gas-Oil" (Red Diesel) at home.

I believe marinas and diesel boats are currently paying around 72ppl for a minimum of 2000 litres.  I may well be out by up to 5ppl either way on the most up to date price.

 

George

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Although I am still paying around 50p for "Gas-Oil" (Red Diesel) at home.

Same here, and from my garden I can see the local services selling diesel at 136.9p/litre.  If as they make out there is hardly any profit for the retailer that's a lot of wedge for HMRC -how come the NHS is in such a state..?

 

 

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13 minutes ago, catweasel said:

The gap has certainly closed, for whatever reason. About two years ago I was thinking of just buying white from Asda when on the marina. Then I found somebody who would supply without any propulsion tax so worth buying red. 
I recall when red was about 30p litre, and by my estimate has trebled in 20 years.

It was 50 pence a gallon when we moved onboard and thats only thirty years ago. A gallon!! never mind a poxy litre ?

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12 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I believe marinas and diesel boats are currently paying around 72ppl for a minimum of 2000 litres.  I may well be out by up to 5ppl either way on the most up to date price.

 

George

Then they are not buying very well. Fuel dealers are in the low 50p range - anyone can go onto boiler juice ,com and get 58p

 

Gas Oil NOT Kerosene.

Try it yourself.

 

500 litres at 59.9p

 

Quote for 2000 litres below

 

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Edited by Alan de Enfield
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26 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

It was 50 pence a gallon when we moved onboard and thats only thirty years ago. A gallon!! never mind a poxy litre ?

Amazing isn't it? We are well and truly shafted on fuel prices.

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2 hours ago, catweasel said:

Amazing isn't it? We are well and truly shafted on fuel prices.

 

You did notice those prices are plus VAT, and for a minimum delivery of 2000 litres,. and for heating oil not red diesel?

 

Here is my quote for 500 litres of diesel, still more than would fit in most narrowboat diesel tanks, which has to be delivered to a postcoded address not a canalside wharf:

 

Even the cheapest quote is 74.4p once VAT is included.

 

 

1509429415_Screenshot2019-07-17at22_04_16.png.40250448cd8b3285dea38e98d99c0e93.png

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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Did the bar just get a lot lower for how much you'd have to make from occasional trading to make a business licence worth buying? For people doing a lot of cruising, I mean, who might be looking at an extra £500 or more in diesel costs each year because of this change.

Edited by magictime
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46 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You did notice those prices are plus VAT, and for a minimum delivery of 2000 litres,. and for heating oil not red diesel?

 

 

 

You did notice that you could buy 500 litres (and I gave the price) ?

You did notice that I stated it was for RED DIESEL ?

You do think that marinas and other suppliers are VAT registered ?

You are aware that VAT is only 5% ?

 

You did notice I said 'try it yourself' ?

 

As I'm sure you are aware, all business transactions are exclusive of VAT (it is only required to quote VAT inclusive when selling to the end user) so the quoted 72p that the marinas are quoted as paying would be exclusive of VAT

 

Lets say you buy 500 litres at 60p, add the VAT and it becomes 63p (VAT on red diesel is 5% for quantities below 2300 litres and 20% for quantities above 2300 litres.)

 

So you can either pay 63p (inc VAT) from Boiler Juice (less if you phone up your local supplier) or you can pay 100+ p from the marina.

 

 

I do buy red diesel (Gas Oil) regularly, normally 1000 litre lots, to keep the tractors, dumper and digger from going thirsty.

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Not quite, according to my father-in-law whose career was with BP as a diesel fuels chemist....

 

 

Interesting.  All the major retailers (Shell, BP etc.) have their own formulation via additives packs for their fuel - not just diesel - and the supermarkets either have their own too or just buy whatever they can get cheaply.

 

It's always been the case that when you get a new-to-you vehicle it's worth trying a few tanks from each source to see what it runs best on.  One of my previous cars ran far better on Sainsbury's diesel than any other, but my current car runs badly and smokes a lot on that.  On Tesco diesel I get an extra 5 MPG and no black smoke, so I tend to use that.

 

It was certainly the case 20 years ago that all the wagon drivers swore by Shell diesel in the winter as it waxed a lot less in cold temperatures than any other, but that is much less the case these days - presumably everyone else has upped their game!

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7 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Interesting.  All the major retailers (Shell, BP etc.) have their own formulation via additives packs for their fuel - not just diesel - and the supermarkets either have their own too or just buy whatever they can get cheaply.

 

It's always been the case that when you get a new-to-you vehicle it's worth trying a few tanks from each source to see what it runs best on.  One of my previous cars ran far better on Sainsbury's diesel than any other, but my current car runs badly and smokes a lot on that.  On Tesco diesel I get an extra 5 MPG and no black smoke, so I tend to use that.

 

It was certainly the case 20 years ago that all the wagon drivers swore by Shell diesel in the winter as it waxed a lot less in cold temperatures than any other, but that is much less the case these days - presumably everyone else has upped their game!

 

F-i-L used to say the composition of white diesel they supplied varied through out the year, while red diesel was the same all year around. The white diesel had anti-waxing additives which started in October and stopped in March as turnover was high but can't remember what he said about red. He was not surprised however that Webastos ran better on white than red. 

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13 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

If all suppliers of red diesel simply stopped selling fuel all narrowboats would overnight become unusable, the value of boats would fall through the floor and their business model of the marina owners flogging moorings at £3k a year each would evaporate. I predict this will not happen, a few red diesel sellers WILL set up selling white at say £1.70 a litre. A proportion of boaters will twart about bringing road diesel in cans but the (fewer) canalside retailers who will switch to white will be doing a handsome and profitable trade selling it to boaters not so stupid as to waste hours of time and effort that could be spent boating, moving fuel in tiny batches from petrol stations into the boat in order to save £3 a day on fuel costs. 

Interestingly, the ones that would have it easiest are the fuel boats!  £120 buys them a new shiny IBC that they get white diesel pumped in, and dispose of the old IBC that had red diesel in.  Steam clean the metered pump and the dispensing nozzle, new hoses as it's not worth faffing about with consumable items and Robert is your Father's brother ...

 

Compared to trying to clean or replace large scale bunded storage and fixed dispensing pumps, this is peanuts.

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13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Hmmmm I'm not sure about that.

 

They will normally get up onto the plane at around 15-17 knots and once on the plane (over the hump) you can throttle back a little and maintain the same speed.

 

If you want to increase speed then you need more Revs / Power and as power developed is approximately proportional to the cube of the engine revs, fuel consumed is also proportional to the cube of engine revs.

 

The more revs you have, the faster you go*, the more fuel you consume.

 

* Planing boats.

 

His argument was that yes more speed equals more fuel consumed but a shorter journey time which exactly offsets the extra fuel used.  He was quite certain this was the case, and being an airline pilot in his day job I suspect he knew all about fuel consumption. 

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