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UK to Comply With EU Ruling on Red Diesel.


Alan de Enfield

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3 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I just wonder why Parliament would bother with passing new primary legislation given that, according to another thread on this forum, all diesel will be banned anyway! Or am I just madly expecting joined up government?

Even Fiberglass is in the spotlight now for boats at end of life. https://www.boatbreakers.com/end-life-boats-issue-marine-industry-cant-ignore/

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17 minutes ago, catweasel said:

Possible I suppose. I can't see our government reversing the current arrangement where we pay a split though. Again they have more important things to do.
Time alone will tell, but at this moment in time I do not believe that we will get the "full red" status back that we once enjoyed on inland waterways. As a body, I do not think that we have argued our case well. 

I don't know about that, I thought our government were well persuaded by the arguments regarding what effect increasing tax would have on the leisure/boat industry and I can't see how anything has changed there.  I suspect if anything their attitude will become even more bloody minded now.

 

It's surely no big deal in the narrowboat world given the relatively small amount of fuel most will get through in a year, but if you have a planing cruiser swallowing eight gallons an hour you might be more than a little upset and definitely if you're trying to sell the things.  I can't see the likes of Princess letting this happen without a fight.    

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20 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I don't know about that, I thought our government were well persuaded by the arguments regarding what effect increasing tax would have on the leisure/boat industry and I can't see how anything has changed there.  I suspect if anything their attitude will become even more bloody minded now.

 

It's surely no big deal in the narrowboat world given the relatively small amount of fuel most will get through in a year, but if you have a planing cruiser swallowing eight gallons an hour you might be more than a little upset and definitely if you're trying to sell the things.  I can't see the likes of Princess letting this happen without a fight.    

We shall see. I don't share your confidence in our government.

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7 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

It's surely no big deal in the narrowboat world given the relatively small amount of fuel most will get through in a year, but if you have a planing cruiser swallowing eight gallons an hour you might be more than a little upset and definitely if you're trying to sell the things.  I can't see the likes of Princess letting this happen without a fight.

I would suggest that fuel suppliers (particularly on the Cut) will not turn over enough to justify the cost of  doubling up and installing second tanks, pumps etc.

They will change over 100% to White, so the option of duty-free red for 'domestic use' will not even be available.

 

Little point on boaters fitting a second tank if they cannot source the fuel to fill it.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would suggest that fuel suppliers (particularly on the Cut) will not turn over enough to justify the cost of  doubling up and installing second tanks, pumps etc.

They will change over 100% to White, so the option of duty-free red for 'domestic use' will not even be available.

 

Little point on boaters fitting a second tank if they cannot source the fuel to fill it.

Whenever I have asked canal suppliers about this, they have indicated that they would have to go 100% white, pretty much for the reasons you state. Furthermore I can't see that they would be able to compete with supermarket prices.
Similarly it would not be worth me adding a second tank and boiler in our boat for heating/hot water production, or a diesel generator. It is nice to get one over on the man, but the costs implied would pay for white diesel for many years to come. Perhaps different if commissioning a new boat. 

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6 minutes ago, catweasel said:

Furthermore I can't see that they would be able to compete with supermarket prices.

At home I am paying about 50-55p per litre for red.

Our local garage is 110p per litre for red

Our local garage is about 130p for white.

 

Our marina is 105p per litre (no split) for red.

 

 

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2 hours ago, catweasel said:

Yes nobody welcomes it, me included.

That said I have yet to see a convincing argument put forward for using red for propulsion other than "we have always done it like that."

Maybe the fact that Churchill specifically promised it to all inland craft in perpetuity, in recognition of those who went to Dunkirk, should count for something.

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10 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

Maybe the fact that Churchill specifically promised it to all inland craft in perpetuity, in recognition of those who went to Dunkirk, should count for something.

I am aware of that, but I still don't see our government honouring it. I don't have the confidence (or perhaps trust would be a better word) in them that others seem to have. 

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Could be a lot worse....I am surprised the EEC has not shut down our canal system or at least forced us to "Euroise" it. Our narrow canals do not meet EEC waterway specifications and so unfairly discriminate against European boats.  Oh  just a thought, I wonder if the monster causing havoc on the GU is owned by some sort of (unelected) euroboss which is why CRT are jumping through hoops to widen the bridges :)

 

...............Dave

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A couple of points

We have been paying for white diesel in France for many years and probably adds a couple of hundred pounds to the fuel bill. Hire craft can use red diesel as can commercial craft.  Means you have to go with cans to a supermarket  which is a pain.

What seems wrong to me is that light aircraft pay no fuel taxes at all as far as I know. Some boaters run their semi- diesels on aviation kerosene.

 

I am not sure what the legal position is on using paraffin -  maybe some old tvo engines will become popular. I think you are still allowed to brew so much vegatable oil for your own use without declaring it. Make the cut smell like a linear fish and chip shop!

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3 minutes ago, dmr said:

Could be a lot worse....I am surprised the EEC has not shut down our canal system or at least forced us to "Euroise" it. Our narrow canals do not meet EEC waterway specifications and so unfairly discriminate against European boats.  Oh  just a thought, I wonder if the monster causing havoc on the GU is owned by some sort of (unelected) euroboss which is why CRT are jumping through hoops to widen the bridges :)

 

...............Dave

You are a very bad man.

 

Fortunately my keyboard is splashproof, but sadly it was wine not coffee!

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22 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

Maybe the fact that Churchill specifically promised it to all inland craft in perpetuity, in recognition of those who went to Dunkirk, should count for something.

That has long since been forgotten.

Was it just a promise or was it a law? 

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6 minutes ago, MartynG said:

That has long since been forgotten.

Was it just a promise or was it a law? 

Interesting point. Hopefully somebody will have an answer. 
Also  did the promise apply to petrol craft? Can I claim back the duty for all my outboard motor usage? Doubt it!

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5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

That has long since been forgotten.

Was it just a promise or was it a law? 

I have no idea, I hope somebody does,  but I suspect the Government then was too busy fighting a war to bother with making such trivialities into law.

 

I just find it so frustrating that the EU invited the UK to apply to renew the deregulation, and our Goverment at the time (led by Gordon Brown IIRC) decided not to do so - presumably in order that they could collect the tax revenue from us and blame the "evil EU" for it.

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12 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

I have no idea, I hope somebody does,  but I suspect the Government then was too busy fighting a war to bother with making such trivialities into law.

 

I just find it so frustrating that the EU invited the UK to apply to renew the deregulation, and our Goverment at the time (led by Gordon Brown IIRC) decided not to do so - presumably in order that they could collect the tax revenue from us and blame the "evil EU" for it.

I too remember that happening. Some have conveniently forgotten.

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1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Will a significant increase in diesel prices due to a change to wite diesel , result in fewer people going boating?

Define significant.  Two days ago I paid 98p/L (fixed split).  Alan says his marina charge 105p/L (no split).

 

White diesel is about 130p/L full tax paid round here.  At a litre per hour, would 25 or 30p per hour extra really put people on £50,000 - £100,000 boats off cruising?

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4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

White diesel is about 130p/L full tax paid round here. 

 

That is however petrol station price, a retailer who needs to shift perhaps 25,000 litres of the stuff per week to make it worth selling. I dunno how much profit margin the petrol stations make on white diesel but I doubt it is more than about 10p a litre, selling it at £1.30, so they probably pay £1.20p for bulk buying. 

 

Yer average boat yard or fuel boat buys perhaps 2,000 litres a month delivered to canalside is unlikely to be able to buy it at £1.20, an will need to make more than 10p a litre to make a living I suspect, so canal prices for white diesel is gonna be closer to £1.50 I expect. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Define significant.  Two days ago I paid 98p/L (fixed split).  Alan says his marina charge 105p/L (no split).

 

White diesel is about 130p/L full tax paid round here.  At a litre per hour, would 25 or 30p per hour extra really put people on £50,000 - £100,000 boats off cruising?

 

Diesel at the waterside will probably be higher price than at a road station. More like  £ 1.40 .

That's what I mean by a  significant increase over about £1 per litre.

 

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6 hours ago, Athy said:

I was thinking along similar lines, mentally totting up how many jerry cans we have (I assume that IBC is a manufacturer of such items), I think we have four, so 20 gallons, so around 150 miles' worth. But, as our arrowroot friend hints, doesn't diesel "go off" after a certain length of time so that it is no longer combustible?

It still remains combustible but on ageing it starts forming gums which will start blocking injectors or maybe more waxing at low temps in very cold winters etc. Maybe Alan's experience of 5 years with farm type equipment is ok but.......then there is the addition of bio-diesel which shortens the shelf life and increases the chance of diesel bug. I'd be concerned about diesel over a couple of years old.

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