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UK to Comply With EU Ruling on Red Diesel.


Alan de Enfield

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In another thread (dating back to last year) Ditchcrawler has posted an announcement regarding the Governments plans on Red Diesel for Leisure boating.

 

I 'reported' the post and suggested that in view of the serious implications, it should be split out and a new thread started. 

 

It was suggested that if I thought it important I should start a new thread.

 

So here we go.

 

 

 

Ditchcrawler posted this :

 

 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/817231/Implementation_of_CJEU_judgment_on_diesel_fuel.pdf

 

To give you a 'flavour'

 

It is proposed that Red Diesel is not allowed for propulsion and a boat with a single tank MUST use white diesel for everything, or have a second tank fitted.

There will be no concessions for CCers (they will pay full duty & VAT)

 

1.3 The Energy Taxation Directive states that fuel used in private pleasure craft for propulsion must be charged at the full duty rate.  When this rule came into force in 2007, such craft were using red diesel charged at the rebated rate and users of private pleasure craft in the UK cited significant practical difficulties to switching to white diesel.  In response, the UK devised a pragmatic scheme of allowing private pleasure craft to continue to use red diesel for propulsion but require their fuel supplier to collect from the craft operator the difference in duty between the red and white diesel rates, and pay the additional duty to HM Revenue and Customs.   
 
1.4 In 2018, the CJEU ruled that the UK’s practice of allowing private pleasure craft to use red diesel that had duty paid on it at the white diesel rate was contrary to the Fuel Marker Directive.  While the UK is a member of the EU and under any implementation period agreed as part of our exit from the EU, we are obliged under international law to implement the judgment or risk substantial fines.   
 
1.5 The government intends to remove the option of private pleasure craft to use red diesel for propulsion and require them to use white diesel because the other options available have been ruled illegal by the CJEU.  

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Of course, no one on this forum will want this change to take place. But think of the times when essential items such as electricity, gas and beer so on have gone up in price. People growl and grouse for a week or two and then just accept it and get on with it.

 

I wonder why you particularly mention CC-ers; is there any reason for them to be exempted?

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9 minutes ago, frangar said:

But we will soon be leaving the EU so technically this need not be applied. Sadly I bet it is tho. Time to write to your MP I think. 

If only that were true!!

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1 minute ago, Athy said:

Of course, no one on this forum will want this change to take place. But think of the times when essential items such as electricity, gas and beer so on have gone up in price. People growl and grouse for a week or two and then just accept it and get on with it.

 

I wonder why you particularly mention CC-ers; is there any reason for them to be exempted?

Yes nobody welcomes it, me included.

That said I have yet to see a convincing argument put forward for using red for propulsion other than "we have always done it like that." Many other tax laws have changed for the worse over the years.  Since my youth I have paid "propulsion tax" on petrol for off road car racing, off road motorcycle racing, mowing the lawn, chain sawing, generating power for power tools, powering my dighy etc etc and never even thought about it until I owned a diesel boat.
I will suffer price wise as our engine is the sole means of heating the water and charges the batteries  when not cruising. We do have a genny but petrol though likely to be LPG soon if this diesel thing happens!
I will bet my boots that the change to white will go ahead even after Brexit.
 

 

12 minutes ago, frangar said:

But we will soon be leaving the EU so technically this need not be applied. Sadly I bet it is tho. Time to write to your MP I think. 

Likewise, and worse.

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Just now, frangar said:

Of course it will take ages for the traces of dye to go so now might be the time to get an IBC tank or two of red......who’s going to know that it’s not fuel in the tank from before they stopped you using red? 

Good point. Also the steel work will be stained if what I was told is true.

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1 minute ago, frangar said:

Of course it will take ages for the traces of dye to go so now might be the time to get an IBC tank or two of red......who’s going to know that it’s not fuel in the tank from before they stopped you using red? 

Nice to see you are trying to fiddle the taxman in public! :D

 

If they do indeed mandate we all have to use white diesel, there will be an implementation date after which it will be a criminal offence to have red diesel in your fuel system - tanks/filters etc, so what do you intend to do with the remaining 1500 litres of stale red diesel at that point?

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4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Nice to see you are trying to fiddle the taxman in public! :D

 

If they do indeed mandate we all have to use white diesel, there will be an implementation date after which it will be a criminal offence to have red diesel in your fuel system - tanks/filters etc, so what do you intend to do with the remaining 1500 litres of stale red diesel at that point?

How exactly are you planning to remove all traces of dye from your fuel system?? And let’s bear in mind that some boats use fuel at a very low rate....what are they expected to do with any remaining red?? Pump it overboard? 

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26 minutes ago, Athy said:

Of course, no one on this forum will want this change to take place. But think of the times when essential items such as electricity, gas and beer so on have gone up in price. People growl and grouse for a week or two and then just accept it and get on with it.

 

I wonder why you particularly mention CC-ers; is there any reason for them to be exempted?

Normally, pretty much everything is VAT zero rated for residential use. When we had our house built everything we (the builders) bought was Zero rated VAT.

The builders did not charge VAT

 

Liveaboards that do not move can use Red diesel,

Those that pay council tax on their mooring can use Red diesel. (Its all in the document)

Liveaboard CCers that move must use White diesel

 

In the consultation in the early 2000's CCers lobbied for the same rights.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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9 minutes ago, frangar said:

Of course it will take ages for the traces of dye to go so now might be the time to get an IBC tank or two of red......who’s going to know that it’s not fuel in the tank from before they stopped you using red? 

I was thinking along similar lines, mentally totting up how many jerry cans we have (I assume that IBC is a manufacturer of such items), I think we have four, so 20 gallons, so around 150 miles' worth. But, as our arrowroot friend hints, doesn't diesel "go off" after a certain length of time so that it is no longer combustible?

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Liveaboards that do not move can use Red diesel

.

Ah, I see. That makes sense.

Surely all of them move a bit, even if only to a water point and/or sanny station?

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3 minutes ago, frangar said:

How exactly are you planning to remove all traces of dye from your fuel system?? And let’s bear in mind that some boats use fuel at a very low rate....what are they expected to do with any remaining red?? Pump it overboard? 

The questionnaire asks you to inform them of your anticipated time period to use all your current 'stock'.

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1 minute ago, Athy said:

I was thinking along similar lines, mentally totting up how many jerry cans we have (I assume that IBC is a manufacturer of such items), I think we have four, so 20 gallons, so around 150 miles' worth. But, as our arrowroot friend hints, doesn't diesel "go off" after a certain length of time so that it is no longer combustible?

IBC is Intermediate Bulk Container....those big opaque tanks with the steel cage round them...they hold 1000 litres

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

The questionnaire asks you to inform them of your anticipated time period to use all your current 'stock'.

How longs a bit of string?? Hard to judge isn’t it.....just sayin....

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3 minutes ago, Athy said:

But, as our arrowroot friend hints, doesn't diesel "go off" after a certain length of time so that it is no longer combustible?

Not that I'm aware of - my Bowser / tank at home has 5 year old diesel still in it - I filled up the digger the other day and its running fine.

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Normally, pretty much everything is VAT zero rated for residential use. When we had our house built everything we (the builders) bought was Zero rated VAT.

The builders did not charge VAT

 

Liveaboards that do not move can use Red diesel,

Those that pay council tax on their mooring can use Red diesel. (Its all in the document)

Liveaboard CCers that move must use White diesel

 

In the consultation in the early 2000's CCers lobbied for the same rights.

That is how I understand the situation.
CCers and suchlike will still be able to have a "red" tank for domestic use should they so wish.

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5 minutes ago, Athy said:

I was thinking along similar lines, mentally totting up how many jerry cans we have (I assume that IBC is a manufacturer of such items), I think we have four, so 20 gallons, so around 150 miles' worth. But, as our arrowroot friend hints, doesn't diesel "go off" after a certain length of time so that it is no longer combustible?

Ah, I see. That makes sense.

Surely all of them move a bit, even if only to a water point and/or sanny station?

It would appear that if you have a 'permanent' mooring on which you pay council tax - you can go for a cruise and still use "Red".

(maybe its a loophole, or maybe I'm misreading it)

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43 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In another thread (dating back to last year) Ditchcrawler has posted an announcement regarding the Governments plans on Red Diesel for Leisure boating.

 

I 'reported' the post and suggested that in view of the serious implications, it should be split out and a new thread started. 

 

It was suggested that if I thought it important I should start a new thread.

 

So here we go.

 

 

 

 

 

Ta

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It would appear that if you have a 'permanent' mooring on which you pay council tax - you can go for a cruise and still use "Red".

(maybe its a loophole, or maybe I'm misreading it)

Only to the pumpout and back though.

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As HMRC is running on very reduced numbers nowadays,I wonder who is going to check. So far as I am aware,red diesel will continue to be available to farmers and the construction industry. Other than honeypot sites,the likelyhood of being checked is, I suspect, zero. HMRC has never been keen to check,which is why we have the present system.

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18 minutes ago, nebulae said:

 Other than honeypot sites,the likelyhood of being checked is, I suspect, zero. HMRC has never been keen to check,which is why we have the present system.

Even retailers'records have, apparently, seldom been checked for years. Mark Boardman (the former operator of the fuel boat 'Dusty') told me five or so years ago that he was no longer filling in the forms to end off to HMRC, or charging a "split" price because he had had no reaction from them after years of dutifully sending in the completed forms.

 

Incidentally, two weeks ago we saw Mark, looking well and steering the Banbury day-trip boat.

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Looking at the document in Ditchcrawler's link quoted in the opening post, I see it says it's a consultation document about how to implement the CJEU judgment, with a deadline for comments of 9th September. HMRC go on to say:

 

After the consultation: A summary of responses will be published after this consultation concludes. This consultation will inform when the changes will be brought into effect in legislation and whether any adjustment period is needed.

 

So HMRC can't simply do it, it requires legislation. Given that Boris Johnson is near certain to become PM next week and has declared his intention to leave the EU by 31st October, and bearing in mind that Parliament takes a break for the party conference season and will be rather preoccupied with Brexit when it reconvenes, what are the chances of any legislation on red diesel getting passed by 31st October? I'm no expert on Parliamentary procedure, but my gut feeling is virtually zero!

Therefore, unless the Remainers find a way to block Boris, and let's not clutter this topic up by debating whether they should, we'll arrive at 1st November out of the EU and with the law on red diesel unchanged. In which case I suppose HMRC will no longer be obliged to implement the CJEU judgment, the government will have more pressing matters to think about, and it's most unlikely to go ahead?

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6 minutes ago, Peter X said:

Looking at the document in Ditchcrawler's link quoted in the opening post, I see it says it's a consultation document about how to implement the CJEU judgment, with a deadline for comments of 9th September. HMRC go on to say:

 

After the consultation: A summary of responses will be published after this consultation concludes. This consultation will inform when the changes will be brought into effect in legislation and whether any adjustment period is needed.

 

So HMRC can't simply do it, it requires legislation. Given that Boris Johnson is near certain to become PM next week and has declared his intention to leave the EU by 31st October, and bearing in mind that Parliament takes a break for the party conference season and will be rather preoccupied with Brexit when it reconvenes, what are the chances of any legislation on red diesel getting passed by 31st October? I'm no expert on Parliamentary procedure, but my gut feeling is virtually zero!

Therefore, unless the Remainers find a way to block Boris, and let's not clutter this topic up by debating whether they should, we'll arrive at 1st November out of the EU and with the law on red diesel unchanged. In which case I suppose HMRC will no longer be obliged to implement the CJEU judgment, the government will have more pressing matters to think about, and it's most unlikely to go ahead?

Possible I suppose. I can't see our government reversing the current arrangement where we pay a split though. Again they have more important things to do.
Time alone will tell, but at this moment in time I do not believe that we will get the "full red" status back that we once enjoyed on inland waterways. As a body, I do not think that we have argued our case well. 

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I just wonder why Parliament would bother with passing new primary legislation given that, according to another thread on this forum, all diesel will be banned anyway! Or am I just madly expecting joined up government?

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