EU GPS Satellites are "out of order"

[Alan de Enfield]

Just as macron announces the new "Space Defence" arm of the French Military, Europe's GPS satellites all go 'down' (and have been for 4 days)

 

"The downtime also comes after widespread GPS outages were reported across Israel, Iran, Iraq, and Syria at the end of June. Israeli media blamed the downtime on Russian interference, rather than a technical problem."

 

Co-Incidence ?

 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/techandscience/eus-gps-satellites-have-been-down-for-four-days-in-mysterious-outage/ar-AAEkm7q

[NB Lola]

EU is down to an Italy time sequencing service failing.  I doubt it was interference as our Russian friends depend on satellite coverage from other GPS systems as well as their own service.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

15 minutes ago, NB Lola said:

EU is down to an Italy time sequencing service failing.  I doubt it was interference as our Russian friends depend on satellite coverage from other GPS systems as well as their own service.

GPS was originally a military thing and still is. Developed partly to increase the accuracy of nukes launched from submarines and mobile land launchers. If they know exactly where they've started from they stand a bigger chance of landing on their target. No surprise that most of the countries that have their own system also have big militaries and nukes. America (GPS), Russia (Glonass), EU actually France (Galileo), China (Beidou), India (NAVIC). The only exception is the Japanese system. India developed their own system after the Americans locked them out during an India/Pakistan conflict in 1999.

 

Jen

[Slim]

22 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

GPS was originally a military thing and still is. Developed partly to increase the accuracy of nukes launched from submarines and mobile land launchers. If they know exactly where they've started from they stand a bigger chance of landing on their target. No surprise that most of the countries that have their own system also have big militaries and nukes. America (GPS), Russia (Glonass), EU actually France (Galileo), China (Beidou), India (NAVIC). The only exception is the Japanese system. India developed their own system after the Americans locked them out during an India/Pakistan conflict in 1999.

 

Jen

And soon we will have Telstar?

[howardang]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just as macron announces the new "Space Defence" arm of the French Military, Europe's GPS satellites all go 'down' (and have been for 4 days)

 

"The downtime also comes after widespread GPS outages were reported across Israel, Iran, Iraq, and Syria at the end of June. Israeli media blamed the downtime on Russian interference, rather than a technical problem."

 

Co-Incidence ?

 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/techandscience/eus-gps-satellites-have-been-down-for-four-days-in-mysterious-outage/ar-AAEkm7q

Not surprising, really, and something which has been suggested many times in recent years that at times of tension this scenario could happen, so hopefully a timely lesson for many people who have relied totally on GPS. Possibly now is  the time to dig out the old Hambone methinks, and for people to learn, (or relearn) how to navigate properly?

 

Howard

[dor]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

GPS was originally a military thing and still is. Developed partly to increase the accuracy of nukes launched from submarines and mobile land launchers. If they know exactly where they've started from they stand a bigger chance of landing on their target. No surprise that most of the countries that have their own system also have big militaries and nukes. America (GPS), Russia (Glonass), EU actually France (Galileo), China (Beidou), India (NAVIC). The only exception is the Japanese system. India developed their own system after the Americans locked them out during an India/Pakistan conflict in 1999.

 

Jen

I understand that the US system is accurate on the ground to a few cms, but they introduced a drift to limit the accuracy to non-military users. The drift used to be about 100 metres, but was reduced to about five metres which is when it became useable for satellite navigation.  However, the Ordnance Survey link their field units to an accurately located base station so they can subtract the drift to get an accurate location of the field unit.  No doubt anyone else with sufficient resources could do the same, which rather defeats the purpose of the induced drift.

Some handheld GPS receivers can also use the “Edge” system which brings the accuracy down to about three metres.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

8 minutes ago, dor said:

I understand that the US system is accurate on the ground to a few cms, but they introduced a drift to limit the accuracy to non-military users. The drift used to be about 100 metres, but was reduced to about five metres which is when it became useable for satellite navigation.  However, the Ordnance Survey link their field units to an accurately located base station so they can subtract the drift to get an accurate location of the field unit.  No doubt anyone else with sufficient resources could do the same, which rather defeats the purpose of the induced drift.

Some handheld GPS receivers can also use the “Edge” system which brings the accuracy down to about three metres.

Otherwise known as differential GPS. Using ground transmitters of known location to enhance the accuracy. GPS for civilian use only took off after president Clinton turned off selective availability in the late 90's, that reduced accuracy to around 50 to 100m.

 

Jen

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, dor said:

I understand that the US system is accurate on the ground to a few cms, but they introduced a drift to limit the accuracy to non-military users. The drift used to be about 100 metres, but was reduced to about five metres which is when it became useable for satellite navigation.  However, the Ordnance Survey link their field units to an accurately located base station so they can subtract the drift to get an accurate location of the field unit.  No doubt anyone else with sufficient resources could do the same, which rather defeats the purpose of the induced drift.

Some handheld GPS receivers can also use the “Edge” system which brings the accuracy down to about three metres.

 

My hiking GPS is (normally) accurate to less than 15 feet.

It tells you if conditions have degraded the accuracy.

 

It doesn't use 'Edge'.

It automatically switches between EGNOS & WAAS to give the most accurate positioning.

 

The European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service (EGNOS) is the first pan-European satellite navigation system. It augments the US GPS satellite navigation system and makes it suitable for safety critical applications such as flying aircraft or navigating ships through narrow channels

 

The Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS) is an air navigation aid developed by the Federal Aviation Administration to augment the Global Positioning System (GPS), with the goal of improving its accuracy, integrity, and availability.

[howardang]

11 minutes ago, dor said:

I understand that the US system is accurate on the ground to a few cms, but they introduced a drift to limit the accuracy to non-military users. The drift used to be about 100 metres, but was reduced to about five metres which is when it became useable for satellite navigation.  However, the Ordnance Survey link their field units to an accurately located base station so they can subtract the drift to get an accurate location of the field unit.  No doubt anyone else with sufficient resources could do the same, which rather defeats the purpose of the induced drift.

Some handheld GPS receivers can also use the “Edge” system which brings the accuracy down to about three metres.

Jen in wellies has beaten me to regarding differential GPS which many survey companies, both on shore and offshore have used over the years. Trinity House in London allowed the use of a number of lighthouses as base stations because their true position was known to fine limits.

 

However, Diff GPS still needs a GPS signal to be useful and if the system is down then it's back to other methods.

 

Howard

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, howardang said:

Trinity House in London allowed the use of a number of lighthouses as base stations because their true position was known to fine limits.

This is the transcript of a radio conversation of a US naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October, 1995. Radio conversation released by the Chief of Naval Operations 10-10-95.

Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a Collision.
Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.
Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.
Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.
Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest ship in the United States' Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that YOU change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or countermeasures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship.
Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call

[pearley]

45 minutes ago, dor said:

I understand that the US system is accurate on the ground to a few cms, but they introduced a drift to limit the accuracy to non-military users. The drift used to be about 100 metres, but was reduced to about five metres which is when it became useable for satellite navigation.  However, the Ordnance Survey link their field units to an accurately located base station so they can subtract the drift to get an accurate location of the field unit.  No doubt anyone else with sufficient resources could do the same, which rather defeats the purpose of the induced drift.

Some handheld GPS receivers can also use the “Edge” system which brings the accuracy down to about three metres.

We used to fit the Philips/VDO car navigation system which used GPS plus dead reckoning via distance travelled and gyroscope to give left and right turns. When initially connected the location would be nearby but never accurate. To calibrate we had to drive round the block, so to speak, when suddenly the cursor would jump to an accurate position.

[howardang]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This is the transcript of a radio conversation of a US naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October, 1995. Radio conversation released by the Chief of Naval Operations 10-10-95.

Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a Collision.
Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.
Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.
Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.
Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest ship in the United States' Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that YOU change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or countermeasures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship.
Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call

You may like this version. There are many others!

 

Howard

 

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by howardang

[Onewheeler]

4 hours ago, Slim said:

And soon we will have Telstar?

We'll bring back Decca Navigator.

[dor]

19 minutes ago, Onewheeler said:

We'll bring back Decca Navigator.

Oh I remember that.  Taking seabed samples on the North Sea for a research project.  Four days of plugging up and down taking samples approximately every hour. Side looking sonar as well, made by a sprung needle recording on wet tissue paper impregnated with some chemical.   Real high tech in 1975.

[Slim]

3 hours ago, dor said:

Oh I remember that.  Taking seabed samples on the North Sea for a research project.  Four days of plugging up and down taking samples approximately every hour. Side looking sonar as well, made by a sprung needle recording on wet tissue paper impregnated with some chemical.   Real high tech in 1975.

As do I. Picking my way through a rocky approach to a now forgotten port in the general area of Brest. Happy days!

[Alan de Enfield]

4 hours ago, Onewheeler said:

We'll bring back Decca Navigator.

Nooooooooo, please.

 

I had one of the 1st Decca that could be purchased - prior to that they were only available to be leased directly from Decca.

 

It was so inaccurate - you could be a mile away from the (supposed) position of the wreck and it showed you had 'arrived'.

 

Low cloud, rain etc etc just totally destroyed any accuracy.

 

We used it for fishing in the Irish Sea - they thought they were on a 'winning boat' as we had all the 'technology'.

 

 

Chain 3B "North British"

 

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[howardang]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Nooooooooo, please.

 

I had one of the 1st Decca that could be purchased - prior to that they were only available to be leased directly from Decca.

 

It was so inaccurate - you could be a mile away from the (supposed) position of the wreck and it showed you had 'arrived'.

 

Low cloud, rain etc etc just totally destroyed any accuracy.

 

We used it for fishing in the Irish Sea - they thought they were on a 'winning boat' as we had all the 'technology'.

 

 

Chain 3B "North British"

 

 

The leased Deccas - especially the Mk 12 and the multipulse versions were much better than the ones you mentioned and I think the model you had a bad experience suffered being built down to a price, especially with the navigational computer aspect which added an unnecessary complication to the kit. The professional Mark 12 was very useful when used with the appropriate Decca chart and was found on the bridges of virtually all merchant ships and the fishing industry also used it with great success. In compaison with the American Loran in my view Decca was easier to use and accuracy ranged fron a couple of hundred yards in good propagation conditions to around a mile in worse conditions, and was found in a number of places around the world, including the New York and Grand Banks areas of the Atlantic. In the late 1960's there was also a VLF system worldwide called Omega which also gave similar accuracy. 

 

When the first sat navs came out, pre GPS - using  the Transit system - there was an opportunity  for much better accuracy, but the downside to that was that this accuracy was only possible while the orbiting satellite was visible. The rest of time the system reverted to dead reckoning using an inbuilt navigation programme. Things were transformed when GPS came along in the 1980's but unfortunately it does rely on the US military continuing to provide the system. 

 

Howard

 

 

 

 

 

[Momac]

I am getting a good GPS signal . So perhaps the problem has gone or it was fake news.

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I am getting a good GPS signal . So perhaps the problem has gone or it was fake news.

Check what system your 'navigator' uses.

If it is GPS then it is the US system and not affected - if it is Galileo (GNSS)  then that is the European system and is the one where the Italians have forgotten to put the 'Euro in the meter'.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Check what system your 'navigator' uses.

If it is GPS then it is the US system and not affected - if it is Galileo (GNSS)  then that is the European system and is the one where the Italians have forgotten to put the 'Euro in the meter'.

 

But your thread title and OP states GPS....

 

Not trying to mislead just a teeny leetle bit, were you?

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

 

Not trying to mislead just a teeny leetle bit, were you?

 

 

 

 

I take your point, but -

No - but if I had said 'GNSS is out of order' how many would have realised what it was, maybe suggestions like :

 

"GN Sanitary Station" is out of order.

[Machpoint005]

41 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

But your thread title and OP states GPS....

 

Not trying to mislead just a teeny leetle bit, were you?

 

 

 

 

The original quote was from the MSN news network. Nuff said.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

"GN Sanitary Station" is out of order.

What's this? Where am I going to empty the cassette now? CaRT should get a move on and fix it!

 

?

[MtB]

44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I take your point, but -

No - but if I had said 'GNSS is out of order' how many would have realised what it was, maybe suggestions like :

 

"GN Sanitary Station" is out of order.

 

OMG Alan says the GN Sanitary Station is out of order!!!!

 

How we gonna cope???!!!!!

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

16 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

What's this? Where am I going to empty the cassette now? CaRT should get a move on and fix it!

 

?

It's gonlass!