Battery charging problem

[cutandpolished61]

Hi all, sorry for the confusion in regards to location. The boat is still in Great Haywood Marina but I'm leaving for London on Wednesday.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, cutandpolished61 said:

Hi all, sorry for the confusion in regards to location. The boat is still in Great Haywood Marina but I'm leaving for London on Wednesday.

Unless its 'life or death' I'd suggest getting it fixed before you leave.

Once you have 'cut the cord' you are at the mercy of your batteries - what happens if the next failure is your starter battery ?

 

At least where you are you can get an electrical person to sort it out and if you need to get back to London you can leave it there.

Breakdown in the 'middle of nowhere' and you and the boat are stuck.

 

It won't be much fun cruising half way down the country with no electricity - no lights, no water-pump, no washing, no recharging the phone, lap-top etc etc.

[cutandpolished61]

Unfortunealy I must leave on Wednesday. To get someone from the workshop last minute will be tricky. I had to wait almost 2 weeks for the gearbox to be fixed as they are very busy with surveys. If all goes wrong I've got at least a 2.5kw generator on board

[MtB]

1 hour ago, cutandpolished61 said:

Unfortunealy I must leave on Wednesday. To get someone from the workshop last minute will be tricky. I had to wait almost 2 weeks for the gearbox to be fixed as they are very busy with surveys. If all goes wrong I've got at least a 2.5kw generator on board

 

Have you tested it and found it charges everything satisfactorily?

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, cutandpolished61 said:

Unfortunealy I must leave on Wednesday. To get someone from the workshop last minute will be tricky. I had to wait almost 2 weeks for the gearbox to be fixed as they are very busy with surveys. If all goes wrong I've got at least a 2.5kw generator on board

That sounds like Mk1 Bullshine to me. Surveyors do surveys and boatyard engineers or electricians do mechanical or electrical work. It makes me think they know about it and do not want to get involved.

 

You have to start somewhere so have a study of the electrical notes here:http:// www.tb-training.co.uk  It should explain how to set up and use a multi-meter at the very least. The maintenance notes may also be useful for you. Feel free to print them out section by section or I can email you them in .doc format but with B&W images..

 

 

 

[roland elsdon]

Anyone picked up on alternator at 32 v?

and two paralleled  24 v batteries. Are you sure you arnt 48 volts charging.

[Tony Brooks]

Trouble is that I fear the OP does not have a clue about the boat and how it is set up. I very much doubt its 48 volts because of the lack of readily obtainable equipment. WE don't even know what is giving that 32v reading. If its a "boy racer" type analogue gauge or one from the Far east I would want to check its reading against a known good voltmeter,

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Anyone picked up on alternator at 32 v?

and two paralleled  24 v batteries. Are you sure you arnt 48 volts charging.

 

Yes - but there is so many inaccuracies and 'stuff' that is down right 'wrong' that you have no idea what is actually happening.

 

He appears to have an inverter that does(nt) charge batteries, 12v, 24v and 32v systems all operating of a single alternator, and all that works is the fridge and the bow-thruster.

 

If he is really heading all that way, I can see tears in the near future,

[cutandpolished61]

Tony, I will definitely take up your offer and contact you 1 day before arriving in Uxbridge. If all goes well I should arrive in Uxbridge on the 28th.

 

[MtB]

Just now, cutandpolished61 said:

If all goes well

 

 

This seems highly improbable. 

 

I cannot stress how strongly I recommend getting all this fixed before setting off. You won't make it to Uxbridge.

 

 

 

[Puffin B]

Hi

There's a hire boat company behind the water point on staffs worcesterwith good facilities normally very helpfully.Ide get yourself over there 1st thing.

[cutandpolished61]

The vessel has a 12v and 24v alternator, Today I noticed the 32v on the sterling power management panel.. 3 battery banks, 1 starter battery, 2 leisure batteries 12 v and 4 inverter batteries  creating the 24v for fridge and bow thruster.

[blackrose]

I'm still not sure if the OP has a separate inverter and charger or if it's a combi, but if it is a separate inverter the first thing I'd do is switch it off because if it's on and the mains has tripped it may be trying to power the battery charger which is trying to charge the batteries, which are trying to power the inverter, and around and around we go. It's an impossibility and it shouldn't be wired like that but lots are. Even if it's a combi I'd switch it to "charge only" just to simplify things and stop large loads being taken from the batteries until they can be properly recharged (assuming they aren't already knackered).

 

Then I'd go is go outside and check the bollard to make sure you actually have mains power and it hasn't tripped. Then check the mains trip switches on the boat to make sure they haven't tripped. 

 

Other than that it's difficult to say much without knowing how the system is configuredI. Ifyou do manage to get it up and running then you should be fine even if the batteries are cream-crackered because all your 12v (or 24v?) demands will be indirectly powered by the mains through the battery charger.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, cutandpolished61 said:

3 battery banks, 1 starter battery, 2 leisure batteries 12 v and 4 inverter batteries  creating the 24v for fridge and bow thruster.

Sorry, but that is just more 'nonsense'.

 

An inverter doesn't have 4 batteries to make 24 volts for a bow thruster and fridge.

 

An inverter takes battery voltage and inverts it to 'mains' (230v). I can accept a fridge being 230v (that's not unusual) but not a 230v Bow thruster.

It would not be logical to have a 24v (4 battery) system solely to run the fridge.

DO you have other 230v appliances on board ?

4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Other than that it's difficult to say much without knowing how the system is configuredI. Ifyou do manage to get it up and running then you should be fine even if the batteries are cream-crackered because all your 12v (or 24v?) demands will be indirectly powered by the mains through the battery charger.

But he is 'pulling the plug' on Wednesday and sailing from (almost) the top end of the system to London on a 14 day cruise with non-working electrics.

What happens when the next item to fail is the starter ?

Edited July 14, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Sorry, but that is just more 'nonsense'.

 

An inverted doesn't have 4 batteries for a bow thruster and fridge.

 

An inverter takes battery voltage and inverts it to 'mains' (230v). I can accept a fridge being 230v (that's not unusual) but not a 230v Bow thruster.

It would not be logical to have a 24v (4 battery) system solely to run the fridge.

DO you have other 230v appliances on board ?

 

 

Yes, and I'm beginning to see why the local tradespeople are claiming not to have time to work on this boat. 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman

[cutandpolished61]

A Sterling Pro Combi S Inverter is fitted. But I have no idea if it the 12v or 24v version. Need to check on Tuesday evening as I'm back in London now. Blackrose, I haven't seen a switch on the inverter which would allow me to select charge only option.

[Richard10002]

46 minutes ago, cutandpolished61 said:

A Sterling Pro Combi S Inverter is fitted. But I have no idea if it the 12v or 24v version. Need to check on Tuesday evening as I'm back in London now. Blackrose, I haven't seen a switch on the inverter which would allow me to select charge only option.

If it's a Pro Combi S inverter charger, it doesnt have a switch to select charge only. I emailed Sterling about it in 2011, and he said their next model would have one.

 

It means you cant leave the boat charging on shorepower as, if the shore power fails, the inverter comes on, and uses some amps, even if powering nothing.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, cutandpolished61 said:

Tony, I will definitely take up your offer and contact you 1 day before arriving in Uxbridge. If all goes well I should arrive in Uxbridge on the 28th.

 

Please note the close to a car park bit because I have difficulty walking long distances. Uxbridge was just a suggestion when I thought you were in London. I would say anywhere (near a car park) from Rickmansworth down the GU

 

I am very much with those who are advising that you do not start your journey until you get the charging sorted and understand what you have battery, system and charging wise. The lot who sold the boat to you are not the only people who can help you and I would strongly advise that you ask here for the names and contact details for, preferably marine electricians in the area or good reliable mechanics. Even if you have to move out of the marina and wait on the bank for a day or so.

 

Do you realise that it is possible that all or some of your batteries may need renewing. As Alan asked - what will you do if the staring battery fails or goes flat a few days into your journey?

[Rob-M]

You could try contacting Dave Freeman at Taft Farm he is good with boat electrics and you will boat past him as he is just down the canal from Great Haywood. He may be too busy though at short notice.

PM me if you want his number.

[cutandpolished61]

Morning all, I might have figured out the issue last night which would be actually very surprising considering my level of knowledge.  Reading last night the details about the charger inverters on the sterling website it says the inverter has to be placed close to the relevant batteries. So the inverter is placed in the bow of the vessel next to the 24v batteries feeding the bow thruster and the fridge. Therefore I assume it's a 24v inverter charger. I also incorrectly assumed that the inverter charger is charging all the remaining 12v batteries, this must be wrong. In fact the previous owner has fitted a sterling pro charge ultra in the stern which charges the 12v batteries. Unaware of this setup I didn't run the engine for 2 weeks and the usage of several 12v appliances and running the inverter must have flattened my 12v batteries. Does this sound plausible?

 

 

[Rob-M]

Yes.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, cutandpolished61 said:

In fact the previous owner has fitted a sterling pro charge ultra in the stern which charges the 12v batteries. Unaware of this setup I didn't run the engine for 2 weeks and the usage of several 12v appliances and running the inverter must have flattened my 12v batteries

The Sterling Pro Charge Ultra is a 230v AC to 12v DC battery charger - it must be plugged into the shore-line and switched on to charge the batteries.

 

Running the engine (should charge the batteries via the alternator) but has absolutely no effect on powering the Sterling battery charger.

 

Have you anyway of determining the voltage and remaining capacity of the 12v battery bank ?

If the batteries have been down to around 11-11.5v and not recharged then you will pretty much have destroyed them.

You will still be able to get 12v into / out of them but their capacity will be reduced to 'nothing'.

Instead of being (say) 2x 100Ah batteries, they may well now be as low as 2x 20Ah batteries.

They will power your 12v appliances for a very short time but will quickly go 'flat'.

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, cutandpolished61 said:

Morning all, I might have figured out the issue last night which would be actually very surprising considering my level of knowledge.  Reading last night the details about the charger inverters on the sterling website it says the inverter has to be placed close to the relevant batteries. So the inverter is placed in the bow of the vessel next to the 24v batteries feeding the bow thruster and the fridge. Therefore I assume it's a 24v inverter charger. I also incorrectly assumed that the inverter charger is charging all the remaining 12v batteries, this must be wrong. In fact the previous owner has fitted a sterling pro charge ultra in the stern which charges the 12v batteries. Unaware of this setup I didn't run the engine for 2 weeks and the usage of several 12v appliances and running the inverter must have flattened my 12v batteries. Does this sound plausible?

 

 

 

Yes very plausible! Power up the 12v Pro Charge Ultra (by connecting it to the 240v shoreline that is!) and see what happens. If you are right, all the 12v appliances (lights etc) should start working within five or ten minutes. 

 

Now you are beginning to learn how important it is never to assume ANYTHING about boat electrics. Installers and owners do the most lunatic things so so must always double check everything, never assume anything.  

 

Do let us know the outcome.

 

One possible trip-up for you is your 12v domestic bank (if indeed this is what you have, but now seems likely) is totally flat and the Pro Charge Ultra might refuse to charge totally flat batts. I've had this with clever multi-stage chargers before...

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes very plausible! Power up the 12v Pro Charge Ultra (by connecting it to the 240v shoreline that is!) and see what happens. If you are right, all the 12v appliances (lights etc) should start working within five or ten minutes. 

 

Now you are beginning to learn how important it is never to assume ANYTHING about boat electrics. Installers and owners do the most lunatic things so so must always double check everything, never assume anything.  

 

Do let us know the outcome.

 

One possible trip-up for you is your 12v domestic bank (if indeed this is what you have, but now seems likely) is totally flat and the Pro Charge Ultra might refuse to charge totally flat batts. I've had this with clever multi-stage chargers before...

 

 

 

 

If so carefully put a jump lead between the domestic and engine battery positive terminals. The negative ones should (but may not be) linked. The jump lead may well be enough to fool the charger into thinking the domestic batteries are no absolutely flat. Remove the lead after a few minutes it it is needed and works. Do not leave the jump lead on for very long without the charger charging both banks.

[MtB]

 

One important mystery still remains Tony. Why does running the engine still not charge the domestic bank (whatever voltage it turns out to be)?

 

Granted the OP hasn't mentioned whether or not he has tried running the engine, I don't think....

 

Edit to add: Yes he has been running it. Mentioned in Post 8.

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman