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Loddon

Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways

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19 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Not according to the pretty picture which accompanied the notice. It very clearly showed “Speed: 32mph”. 

Does the pretty picture automatically make those allowances?  Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

 

George

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Interestingly suggestions that slowing down will cut pollution particularly with ships. They already go slower than they used to and the speed is dictated by the balance of cost of fuel (faster uses more per hour) and the time between ports (crew cost) they have sophisticated computer models to work this out. Maybe we will all get allocated lock times and have to adjust our speed accordingly.

 

I have seen a rapid growth in 20 MPH zones ostensibly to reduce pollution, but does it?. My car requires the use of a lower gear at 20 MPH than it does at 30, engine revs are virtually the same, surely the volume of engine emission is linked to the RPM maybe with a little bit less nasties due to not working so hard. But I take 50% longer to traverse the 20MPH zone so the volume of exhaust is actually higher! Still these people know their science, or are they arts graduates who find maths and science to hard.

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35 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Does the pretty picture automatically make those allowances?  Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

 

George

I don’t know but I doubt it. It didn’t say “adjusted speed” or anything like that, it simply said “speed”. It’s like those flashing signs in built up areas. Go through at 30 and they stay off. At 31 they flash. 

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37 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Does the pretty picture automatically make those allowances?  Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

 

George

Unless my speedo reads very under speed there were no allowances for my speed.   The speedo showed the needle just above 30 they said I was doing 32.   As I said above the guy claimed if the camera was triggered (and it is set to the limit) action was taken.

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12 minutes ago, Detling said:

I have seen a rapid growth in 20 MPH zones ostensibly to reduce pollution, but does it?. My car requires the use of a lower gear at 20 MPH than it does at 30, engine revs are virtually the same, surely the volume of engine emission is linked to the RPM maybe with a little bit less nasties due to not working so hard. But I take 50% longer to traverse the 20MPH zone so the volume of exhaust is actually higher! Still these people know their science, or are they arts graduates who find maths and science to hard.

 

This sounds like nonsense to me. I would (perhaps somewhat naively) expect the most efficient (and therefore least polluting) speed for a vehicle to be at the point at which it is just in top gear with minimal engine loading, so probably more like the 55mph range ish bracket for a lot of vehicles.

 

I guess however it depends on wether you're measuring pollution emitted per minute or pollution emitted per mile... clearly the latter is far more useful unless people leave their house and decide they'll drive for 30 mins then stop, rather than going to a destination a set distance away...

Edited by phantom_iv

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2 hours ago, peterboat said:

I can cruise for five hours without the sun shining, but on a sunny day I can cruise all day, but dont as I get bored after 3 hours or so

Ok what if you get 2 or 3 days without sun how many hours per day then?

I have the maximum solar 500watt I can get on my boat without affecting the working of the boat. Yes there is vacant roof space but that is in the "sweep" of the centre line so panels wont last long there. Who is going to provide the canal/riverside charging points ?

Suppose I could fit a decent genset to recharge the batteries ;)

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10 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Ok what if you get 2 or 3 days without sun how many hours per day then?

I have the maximum solar 500watt I can get on my boat without affecting the working of the boat. Yes there is vacant roof space but that is in the "sweep" of the centre line so panels wont last long there. Who is going to provide the canal/riverside charging points ?

Suppose I could fit a decent genset to recharge the batteries ;)

It doesnt matter what we want or think Julian, they will do what they have said they will do, and that is get rid of dirty diesels, wherever their is an alternative, and as I have proved there is, whether it suits you wont bother the powers at be will it? as we have all learned in the Brexit palava,

As an example do all those people in London want a congestion zone? or the new ULEZ the answer would be a big fat NO but millions have had to get rid of good cars because they would cost to much to use, so whats a handful of boaters got that those Londoners didnt? The answer is nowt so enjoy your diesel whilst you can because in the future they will be expensive toys , because thats the easiest way of getting rid of them, high fuel prices and pay to pollute in towns 

Edited by peterboat

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It doesnt matter what we want or think Julian, they will do what they have said they will do, and that is get rid of dirty diesels, wherever their is an alternative, and as I have proved there is, whether it suits you wont bother the powers at be will it? as we have all learned in the Brexit palava,

you didn't answer the question about day 3

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1 minute ago, Loddon said:

you didn't answer the question about day 3

Its a boat it stays where it is, but even with cloudy days I get lots of amps with 3.7wk of solar

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22 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Its a boat it stays where it is, but even with cloudy days I get lots of amps with 3.7wk of solar

So not suitable for those of us who like to move or don’t want to somehow fit that much solar to a narrowboat then. 

 

Oh and I think you will find that the powers that be will have a revolt on their hands if they force much more eco stuff on us...there’s a growing movement against faceless politicians telling us what’s best for us. 

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1 hour ago, WotEver said:

I don’t know but I doubt it. It didn’t say “adjusted speed” or anything like that, it simply said “speed”. It’s like those flashing signs in built up areas. Go through at 30 and they stay off. At 31 they flash. 

Wonderful devices!  They consistently prove my satnav speed is spot on whereas my car speedo constantly overreads.

 

George

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4 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Wonderful devices!  They consistently prove my satnav speed is spot on whereas my car speedo constantly overreads.

 

George

For at least the last 20 years most if not all car manufacturers specify speedos that read high by a few percent.  The amount also varies with tire wear, but so long as tires are road legal the speedo will over read.  Speedo’s are now digital electronic devices (not used spinning magnets and ally discs for years) so either work or don’t work and being digital are stable and do not drift over time, so the days of speeding and claiming your speedo showed you were not, are long gone.

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Its a boat it stays where it is, but even with cloudy days I get lots of amps with 3.7wk of solar

Difficult if you want/need to move.

I have the answer all the narrow locks need enlarging and we all need to get widebeams so we can have enough solar to move ;)

Demonising diesel is bo11ox as who cares if a few locals die from pollution at least the CO2 is low compared to petrol and that helps the planet. Not to mention the fact that the population reduction helps as well.

Edited by Loddon
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8 hours ago, Johny London said:

Getting back to the original question.... let's hope so!

I for one would be more than happy to trade my dirty noisy stinky old oil burner for a clean, silent electric drive.

I can't believe all the nay sayers - Peterboat has the right idea - what's not to like??? Charge as much as possible from solar, the rest off electric points. Hopefully they'll bring these in on VM's initially, gradually increasing to other popular mooring spots. 

I'm sick of the smell of diesel coming in the boat everytime someone goes past! Or having a perfectly good cruise ruined by the rattle and stink. Diesel was never meant for the canals - lets go back to the true tranquillity of yesteryear.

Bring it on!

 

All that said, I can't see any harm in the odd vintage exception though.

So . . .  let's make horses compulsory and introduce a new set of rules that restrict the amount of waste output. 

 

 

Oh, I forgot, animals are one of the greatest sources of pollution. Perhaps we will have to go back to bow hauling, that should fix the obesity problem.

 

I put my faith in the power of road transport lobbies - if electric traction is made possible for trucks that routinely cover several hundred miles a day, I bet (as with the existing marinised truck engines in most canal boats) there will be a solution for us as well. But I doubt that it will involve solar panels on truck roofs . . . 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Johny London said:

I can't believe all the nay sayers - Peterboat has the right idea - what's not to like??? Charge as much as possible from solar, the rest off electric points. Hopefully they'll bring these in on VM's initially, gradually increasing to other popular mooring spots. 

 

I salute your sense of humour!

 

Lets see now. Yer average CCer around here moors for 13 days 23.5 hours a fortnight, then moves for half an hour. During that stationary period most of them run their engine for an hour or three a day to get hot water and charge the batteries.

 

They are mostly too hard up to buy even a single solar panel let alone stump up £10k to have their diesels extracted and solar-powered electric drives and water heating installed.

 

What's not to like??? You must be kidding!

 

OH.... I geddit, is it a 'back door' method of cleansing the scruffy boats off the waterways. Is that what you mean?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Loddon said:

Difficult if you want/need to move.

I have the answer all the narrow locks need enlarging and we all need to get widebeams so we can have enough solar to move ;)

Demonising diesel is bo11ox as who cares if a few locals die from pollution at least the CO2 is low compared to petrol and that helps the planet. Not to mention the fact that the population reduction helps as well.

 

30 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

So . . .  let's make horses compulsory and introduce a new set of rules that restrict the amount of waste output. 

 

 

Oh, I forgot, animals are one of the greatest sources of pollution. Perhaps we will have to go back to bow hauling, that should fix the obesity problem.

 

I put my faith in the power of road transport lobbies - if electric traction is made possible for trucks that routinely cover several hundred miles a day, I bet (as with the existing marinised truck engines in most canal boats) there will be a solution for us as well. But I doubt that it will involve solar panels on truck roofs . . . 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I salute your sense of humour!

 

Lets see now. Yer average CCer around here moors for 13 days 23.5 hours a fortnight, then moves for half an hour. During that stationary period most of them run their engine for an hour or three a day to get hot water and charge the batteries.

 

They are mostly too hard up to buy even a single solar panel let alone stump up £10k to have their diesels extracted and solar-powered electric drives and water heating installed.

 

What's not to like??? You must be kidding!

 

OH.... I geddit, is it a 'back door' method of cleansing the scruffy boats off the waterways. Is that what you mean?

 

 

Does it matter to me? not at all I have done what is required to reduce my pollution to as little as possible, no matter how you complain and whinge it will still happen and you know it. Lets see how the powers at be look at all the replies you are going to give to avoid this happening! I can just see their faces when they read you cant do it cos it aint fair and I have to cruise 10 hours a day because its my right, and my cruising doesnt cause as much pollution as lorries that are doing real work! Oh and all you experts and your children can die with my NOX fumes because canal boating is for fun and isnt really needed at all..........................................😈

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I’m not arsed about fighting for the want to have a diesel engine. 

I’d love a lecky engine. 

Way forward (and reverse). 

 

Anyone with an engine room should be charged the equivalent of a bedroom tax for wasting space. 

 

 

But what I want, what I want, what I really really want is to keep my stove. 

 

 

 

Edited by Goliath
Swopped to want

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37 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

 

Does it matter to me? not at all I have done what is required to reduce my pollution to as little as possible, no matter how you complain and whinge it will still happen and you know it. Lets see how the powers at be look at all the replies you are going to give to avoid this happening! I can just see their faces when they read you cant do it cos it aint fair and I have to cruise 10 hours a day because its my right, and my cruising doesnt cause as much pollution as lorries that are doing real work! Oh and all you experts and your children can die with my NOX fumes because canal boating is for fun and isnt really needed at all..........................................😈

 

I'm not sure why you quoted me, I was replying to Johny London.

 

All I'm doing is posting my forecast of how it will pan out. As it happens I think you're right and electric power WILL be forced onto boats whatever the consequences.

 

I'm forecasting that most boaters forced to get electric drives will do it on a shoestring, and one of the ways of saving capital outlay will be to charge their batteries using portable petrol gennies. Very environmental! 

 

Oh and I'm also forecasting that those who can't afford to (or refuse to) fit an electric motor and £500 of second hand lithiums will get cleansed off the waterways. You support this side-effect presumably? 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Goliath said:

 

Anyone with an engine room should be charged the equivalent of a bedroom tax for wasting space. 

 

There is an obvious answer to this problem.

Edited by Captain Pegg

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1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

There is an obvious answer to this problem.

What’s the answer?

 

😃

Edited by Goliath
To add a smile

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Worldwide growth is currently around 3%. Take this percentage forward to 2050 and compound it, the world's economic activity in 2050 will be almost double what it is today. You can have all the electric cars, boats, planes you like, it would matter not a jot, because even if everything was 'green' more damage would be done then than is now. 

 

It's good to be conscious of things/ behaviours that reduce environmental damage, and try to minimise this damage. But, on its own, with perpetual growth, it's like urinating into a very strong wind. 

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No one has mentioned heating. A significant number have solid fuel stoves with diesel central heating as back up. 

 

With gas heating also to be banned it looks like boating will become a summer only leisure pastime, except for the hardest of souls

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11 minutes ago, cuthound said:

No one has mentioned heating. A significant number have solid fuel stoves with diesel central heating as back up. 

 

With gas heating also to be banned it looks like boating will become a summer only leisure pastime, except for the hardest of souls

 

So diesel heating seems the obvious answer.

 

Then I predict, we will have the ludicrous situation of boats banned from using diesel to move, but fine for diesel to heat them and provide hot water. And given the declared split of 80/20 most liveaboards make, or even 90/10 0r 100% domestic, diesel sales on the cut will continue in winter barely affected by any diesel engine ban.

 

The net result will be only boaters who can afford to fit an electric motor and big battery bank, and afford the extra expense of heating with diesel. 

 

The other scenario is diesel heating on boats gets banned too, leaving the only option for heating in winter being a heat pump. Serious money! 

 

The net effect of all this will be to clear the canals of all 'less well off' liveaboards. Does the team think this is a good idea? Its a side effect barely ever mentioned by anyone other than me. 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, cuthound said:

With gas heating also to be banned it looks like boating will become a summer only leisure pastime, except for the hardest of souls

I must have missed that bit - there was talk earlier in the thread about how to convert Diesel engines to LPG.

 

Is LPG to be 'banned' ?

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