Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways

[Flyboy]

4 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Show me a farm tractor, powered by electricity from renewables that will plough with a 12 furrow plough 10 hours a day, or an electric powered plant machine like a bulldozer, digger or grader.

Why are we not seeing a fleet of Eddie Stobart trucks, ambulances, fire engines & police cars all running on batteries ? Is it because it doesn't work?

[TrippinAround]

25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My car will do 400+ miles on a tank of Diesel, the majority of 'affordable' cars (forget Tesla) have a range of 150 miles (less in the dark, wet or cold weather) so I would need to 'fill up' the leccy about 3 times to be equivalent.

As I have stated before, My boat is 330 miles away from home so It would take me 2 charges in the car to get there and (probably) a night in a hotel.

 

 

My Cruisier has a fuel range of 2000+ miles how many batteries would I need (and how could I recharge them) to have anywhere near the same range.

There are no 're-charge' points between Hull and Norway / Holland / Denmark etc.

Buy a Tesla ? 

I was just explaining that there is an option if the battery is low. Batteries and charge points are improving but for some not there yet. It is very easy to find a negative reason in any argument and fixate on that. 

 

As for your cruiser. Probably not a good candidate for electric unless you can build a flux-capacitor ?

Edited July 28, 2019 by jakk

[GUMPY]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Whilst there are holiday makers going 12,000 miles in a gas-guzzling jet I will enforce my right to travel 300 miles in my car (legislation aside).

I was taking the P!

I will be doing a couple of 550 mile trips next week to move my workshop to sunny Devon at 44mpg even when towing that is less CO2 than a van

6 minutes ago, jakk said:

Buy a Tesla ? 

I was just explaining that there is an option if the battery is low. Batteries and charge points are improving but for some not there yet. It is very easy to find a negative reason in any argument and fixate on that. 

Are they type approved for towing?

The cheapest one is 6x more than I usually spend on a car.

[Boater Sam]

7 minutes ago, jakk said:

Buy a Tesla ? 

I was just explaining that there is an option if the battery is low. Batteries and charge points are improving but for some not there yet. It is very easy to find a negative reason in any argument and fixate on that. 

 

As for your cruiser. Probably not a good candidate for electric unless you can build a flux-capacitor ?

Will we ever have 38.4 million charging points that are all used every night to charge vehicles in the UK alone and will there be enough cabling and power?

[Mike Todd]

7 hours ago, frangar said:

The point is there isn’t really a practical alternative to diesel power for many applications at the moment and not for a while yet....but the green lobby and others jumping on the bandwagon don’t see that.  

 

The horse wasn’t replaced overnight either....change is a very gradual thing....oh and I quite like coal fired steam power as well as vintage diesels...

It is not so much diesel specifically but the energy density it provides. Anything similar would be OK, but, as you say, electric still does not come anywhere near. Its main function is in its instantaneous capacity.

[TrippinAround]

19 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

Why are we not seeing a fleet of Eddie Stobart trucks, ambulances, fire engines & police cars all running on batteries ? Is it because it doesn't work?

 

Here is an ambulance for you. Don't spill your coffee, haha

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by jakk

[Jerra]

3 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Will we ever have 38.4 million charging points that are all used every night to charge vehicles in the UK alone and will there be enough cabling and power?

Probably not, but as yet the majority seem to be in denial with regard to the fact we can not carry on as we are, so fewer cars, say back to the 50s when there was one car in the 20 houses where I lived.

[Onionman]

46 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Several reports in various rags. One as example

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/27/co2-emissions-from-average-uk-new-car-rise-for-first-time-since-2000

I hadn't seen that - thanks.

 

It doesn't mean the UK's overall CO2 output will increase though. It just might not decrease as much. They are talking about missing targets (that are for a significant decrease), not about an increase.

36 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

I don't know what a "Volunteer" would be. I am already ahead having been dead once.

At my age I will be gone before the present efforts make any substantial difference, so I will be doing my bit, dude, what about you?

Perhaps population reduction will still be quicker than scrapping all diesel and petrol engine to burn more fuel building windmills and solar panels to provide an insufficient amount of power for  charging everyone's cars at the same time every night?  That is just not going to happen, the infrastructure will never cope with the  load.

Show me a farm tractor, powered by electricity from renewables that will plough with a 12 furrow plough 10 hours a day, or an electric powered plant machine like a bulldozer, digger or grader.

 

Current infrastructure may not but to say that infrastructure will never cope you'd have to assume that current engineers and businesses aren't thinking about ways to solve the problem. Which, given that there's money to be made, is rather unlikely.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Onionman

[furnessvale]

1 hour ago, Flyboy said:

Why are we not seeing a fleet of Eddie Stobart trucks, ambulances, fire engines & police cars all running on batteries ? Is it because it doesn't work?

Although they still have a long way to go, Stobart is amongst several hauliers beginning to use railfreight for the trunk haul.

 

Many of the trains are electric hauled but even the diesel locos emit a quarter of the CO2 to move the same load.

 

George

[StephenA]

1 hour ago, jakk said:

If you charge it by a diesel genny then yeah, obviously not very green. May I suggest charging via a gerbil powered flywheel. And if grid power is not available probably not a good choice which I never claimed it was. 

I am not trying to say the battery power density is there yet for all machines but it's coming. Here is a link to a big toy

 https://www.electrive.com/2018/04/23/empas-edumper-is-the-worlds-largest-electric-truck/

Then perhaps stop at a charger on the way, just as you would with a gas/petrol powered car. I am going out on a limb thinking you don't have this situation every week and going further out on a limb guessing you don't normally fill your car's petrol tank at home every night.

No but my car does nearly 700 miles on a single tank

[Jerra]

9 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Although they still have a long way to go, Stobart is amongst several hauliers beginning to use railfreight for the trunk haul.

 

Many of the trains are electric hauled but even the diesel locos emit a quarter of the CO2 to move the same load.

 

George

When he started in 2006 he was running a train for Tesco which was the equivalent of 26 lorries in each direction.   He must be doing a lot more by now.

[StephenA]

56 minutes ago, Onionman said:

I hadn't seen that - thanks.

 

It doesn't mean the UK's overall CO2 output will increase though. It just might not decrease as much. They are talking about missing targets (that are for a significant decrease), not about an increase.

 

Current infrastructure may not but to say that infrastructure will never cope you'd have to assume that current engineers and businesses aren't thinking about ways to solve the problem. Which, given that there's money to be made, is rather unlikely.

The profit lies in systems for vehicle charging - some of the problems with the Gov Consultancy are that it looks like they are going after boats as an easy target to reduce pollution - a market that doesn't have the size, or the profit margins, that make it attractive to technical investment.

[Onionman]

24 minutes ago, StephenA said:

The profit lies in systems for vehicle charging - some of the problems with the Gov Consultancy are that it looks like they are going after boats as an easy target to reduce pollution - a market that doesn't have the size, or the profit margins, that make it attractive to technical investment.

I was responding to a post that said that infrastructure will never cope with cars.

[furnessvale]

22 minutes ago, Jerra said:

When he started in 2006 he was running a train for Tesco which was the equivalent of 26 lorries in each direction.   He must be doing a lot more by now.

Yes, things are constantly developing.  They now run 12+ trains a day with 30+ loads on each.

 

The latest train runs at weekends only between Tilbury and Grangemouth (presumably cheaper than HGV drivers on double time).

 

George

 

 

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, furnessvale said:

Yes, things are constantly developing.  They now run 12+ trains a day with 30+ loads on each.

 

The latest train runs at weekends only between Tilbury and Grangemouth (presumably cheaper than HGV drivers on double time).

 

George

 

 

So using your suggestion that a diesel loco gives off 1/4 of the CO² that is the equivalent of 270 Lorries not running.  A good saving and 360 less lorries clogging up the roads.

[furnessvale]

9 minutes ago, Jerra said:

So using your suggestion that a diesel loco gives off 1/4 of the CO² that is the equivalent of 270 Lorries not running.  A good saving and 360 less lorries clogging up the roads.

The CO2 figure is well documented and is caused by several factors.

 

Rail has considerably less rolling resistance than road due to steel rail on steel wheel. Ford USA recently demonstrated their new electric 4x4 by towing 10 US sized rail wagons behind one.

 

Rail makes much more use of tunnels, cuttings and embankments to even out gradients.  Up hill and down dale uses more fuel.

 

Rail has less wind resistance as up to 75 HGV loads are close coupled in a train.

 

George

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

The CO2 figure is well documented and is caused by several factors.

 

Rail has considerably less rolling resistance than road due to steel rail on steel wheel. Ford USA recently demonstrated their new electric 4x4 by towing 10 US sized rail wagons behind one.

 

Rail makes much more use of tunnels, cuttings and embankments to even out gradients.  Up hill and down dale uses more fuel.

 

Rail has less wind resistance as up to 75 HGV loads are close coupled in a train.

 

George

I didn't doubt your figures I just didn't have the knowledge myself.  Thanks for the explanation I guessed at some of it.

[Mike Todd]

3 hours ago, Jerra said:

So using your suggestion that a diesel loco gives off 1/4 of the CO² that is the equivalent of 270 Lorries not running.  A good saving and 360 less lorries clogging up the roads.

Yes, but. Will the space they leave then be filled with more polluting cars?

[peterboat]

6 hours ago, jakk said:

If you charge it by a diesel genny then yeah, obviously not very green. May I suggest charging via a gerbil powered flywheel. And if grid power is not available probably not a good choice which I never claimed it was. 

I am not trying to say the battery power density is there yet for all machines but it's coming. Here is a link to a big toy

 https://www.electrive.com/2018/04/23/empas-edumper-is-the-worlds-largest-electric-truck/

Then perhaps stop at a charger on the way, just as you would with a gas/petrol powered car. I am going out on a limb thinking you don't have this situation every week and going further out on a limb guessing you don't normally fill your car's petrol tank at home every night.

That's some clever truck Jakk, I liked the bit about it used virtually no electric for charging.

We run two hybrid cars both have ranges up to 600 miles on a tank of petrol, I also have an electric van/pickup truck for all my local journeys, its an ugly thing with 900 Watts of solar on it's roof, it seems to work OK and as yet has needed no external charging.

The thing is Jakk being green takes effort and some just can't be bothered to do that small thing, we both know that it's the small things that add up with luck others will catch on

[peterboat]

5 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Will we ever have 38.4 million charging points that are all used every night to charge vehicles in the UK alone and will there be enough cabling and power?

As others have said do you fill your car up with fuel every night? I don't

[TrippinAround]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

As others have said do you fill your car up with fuel every night? I don't

Exactly. Some people will always need to charge BEV's at charge stations, and some won't. There are not 38.4 million petrol stations.

7 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Will we ever have 38.4 million charging points that are all used every night to charge vehicles in the UK alone and will there be enough cabling and power?

Some people will always need to charge BEV's at charge stations, and some won't. There are not 38.4 million petrol stations.

[Jerra]

8 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Yes, but. Will the space they leave then be filled with more polluting cars?

Well going by the attitude of most posters on here who seem to refuse to either accept they need to change and lifestyles need to change probably.   However there is no reason why it should if only people realised change is necessary id=f the species is to survive.

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

Well going by the attitude of most posters on here who seem to refuse to either accept they need to change and lifestyles need to change probably.   However there is no reason why it should if only people realised change is necessary id=f the species is to survive.

I was asking somewhat neutrally - on the basis that it is well-observed that every time a new road scheme provides greater capacity it is quickly filled to the point that congestion is near what it was before.

 

I recall that over 50 decades ago, the Elephant and Castle intersection in London was restructured at considerable expense, only for the problem to be decanted a few hundred metres (probably yards in those days!) to the next nearest roundabout. As is oft remarked, the average speed i London has not improved since the horse and carriage days.

 

Secondly, driving on a motorway a few days ago where a section has been converted to four lane with the removal of the hard shoulder, it seemed to me that those four lanes were as busy as the three had been not so long ago.

 

Something about nature abhorring a vacuum?

[Jerra]

55 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I was asking somewhat neutrally - on the basis that it is well-observed that every time a new road scheme provides greater capacity it is quickly filled to the point that congestion is near what it was before.

 

I recall that over 50 decades ago, the Elephant and Castle intersection in London was restructured at considerable expense, only for the problem to be decanted a few hundred metres (probably yards in those days!) to the next nearest roundabout. As is oft remarked, the average speed i London has not improved since the horse and carriage days.

 

Secondly, driving on a motorway a few days ago where a section has been converted to four lane with the removal of the hard shoulder, it seemed to me that those four lanes were as busy as the three had been not so long ago.

 

Something about nature abhorring a vacuum?

You seem to have missed this bit " However there is no reason why it should if only people realised change is necessary if the species is to survive." 

 

As long as many people take the attitude "I am not going to change my lifestyle" or "I will when everybody else does" or are in denial about climate change then you are probably correct and the human race is on a very slippery and steep slope towards extinction.

 

If people stop being selfish, because that is the root of most of the problem< then we have a chance.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

I was asking somewhat neutrally - on the basis that it is well-observed that every time a new road scheme provides greater capacity it is quickly filled to the point that congestion is near what it was before.

 

My local have sussed out this works backwards too. A few years ago they changed a load of three lane track into two and in some places one lane, and congestion has hardly changed as drivers now choose other routes.