Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Is it possible to buy 100% biodiesel?

 

And if i run my Kelvins on it, am I achieving zero emission status? 

 

 

Mike here is a part of the consultation for you

15 “Air pollutant emissions” – for the purposes of this Call for Evidence, the Department is primarily concerned with the emission of Nitrogen Oxides (NOx), Sulphur Oxides (SOx), and Particulate Matter (PM). However, if respondents wish to provide evidence on the emission of other air pollutants ( and Greenhouse Gases / “GHGs”) , the Department would welcome this contribution.

 

And here is some info on Bio diesel basically it produces more of what the consultation doesnt want

Knocking out NOx - Biodiesel Magazine - The Latest News and Data ...

 

www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/426/knocking-out-nox

 

I used to run my Barrus shire, and my Toyota Lucida on biodiesel in the mistaken belief it was better for the environment, it would seem I was wrong, so I have rectified the problem both have gone

 

[DandV]

14 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Mike here is a part of the consultation for you

15 “Air pollutant emissions” – for the purposes of this Call for Evidence, the Department is primarily concerned with the emission of Nitrogen Oxides (NOx), Sulphur Oxides (SOx), and Particulate Matter (PM). However, if respondents wish to provide evidence on the emission of other air pollutants ( and Greenhouse Gases / “GHGs”) , the Department would welcome this contribution.

 

And here is some info on Bio diesel basically it produces more of what the consultation doesnt want

Knocking out NOx - Biodiesel Magazine - The Latest News and Data ...

 

www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/426/knocking-out-nox

 

I used to run my Barrus shire, and my Toyota Lucida on biodiesel in the mistaken belief it was better for the environment, it would seem I was wrong, so I have rectified the problem both have gone

 

Ah I can now see the point of the consultation. It is to restore historical integrity to canal boat motive power.

Horses. 

No NOx or SOx or any other smelly items.  Whilst there would be considerable particulate emissions, the particle size is too large to be absorbed by humans unless well chewed first.

[GUMPY]

That appears to have scuppered that idea

 

On  a positive note Beta says bio is ok with some modifications, such as electric lift pump and more frequent filter changes.

[peterboat]

17 minutes ago, Loddon said:

That appears to have scuppered that idea

 

On  a positive note Beta says bio is ok with some modifications, such as electric lift pump and more frequent filter changes.

I had an electric fuel pump and instead of changing the main filters had a fuel guard filter straight out of the fuel tank, to be honest at first I was cleaning it fairly often, the engine itself ran well on full bio diesel, so did the lucida for that matter. I was paying 80 p a litre for it so it was a substantial saving for the lucida and about the same on the boat,it did use slightly more fuel on bio though

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, Loddon said:

That appears to have scuppered that idea

 

On  a positive note Beta says bio is ok with some modifications, such as electric lift pump and more frequent filter changes.

I was thinking the same.

 

I have emailed Lancing Marine to see if they can support the 'Biodieselisation' of my Twin Ford's set up (Ford 2725E Dover / Cargo Engines)

[MtB]

The main problem with 100% bio according to that link earlier, is heavily limited storage time.

 

Advice is to use all of it within 45 days of purchase. Fat lot of good on a hobby boat, only any good for those who cruise most days. 

 

 

[Flyboy]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

That appears to have scuppered that idea

 

On  a positive note Beta says bio is ok with some modifications, such as electric lift pump and more frequent filter changes.

And flexible rubber fuel lines will probably have to be changed too.

[Flyboy]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

That appears to have scuppered that idea

 

On  a positive note Beta says bio is ok with some modifications, such as electric lift pump and more frequent filter changes.

That's interesting, Beta seems to have changed their tune. It clearly states in the manuals that the warranty is void if you use more than 7% biofuel.

https://betamarine.co.uk/literature-downloads-uk-inland-waterways/#panel15618968553

Edited July 26, 2019 by Flyboy

[Onionman]

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I take it you havn't actually read the thread or the Government documents ?

 

(Did the next page (or flip side ?) have the following) :

 

Note - NO FOSSIL FUELS BY 2050

No petrol, no diesel, no LPG !!!!

 
2. Maritime 2050 and the Clean Maritime Plan: the Government’s ambition for a zero-emissions maritime sector by 2050 
 
In addition to supporting the specific measures in the Government’s Clean Air Strategy to tackle air pollutant emissions from the UK’s maritime and inland waterways sectors, the Department for Transport has the long-term ambition to see a transition to low and eventually zero emissions. The expectation that the maritime sector will transition away from fossil fuels, as set out in the Department’s Maritime 2050 Strategy (published in January 2019), extends to all parts of the sector, including those vessels on inland waterways and in coastal waters that the Department is seeking to gather information on through this Call for Evidence.  The steps the UK could take in the short, medium and long-term to make the zero emissions ambition a reality will be contained within the Department’s Clean Maritime Plan. The aim of the Plan is to promote innovation and encourage the uptake of zero emission technologies in the maritime sector, rather than prescribe a specific approach or set of measures for vessel owners and industry to take:  “The UK Clean Maritime Plan, which will be published in 2019, will seek to consider the barriers to market for technological solutions to achieving zero emission shipping and the potential for the UK to capture our share of the economic benefits from this transition.” The Clean Maritime Plan will be the beginning of a wider dialogue with industry and the public over steps to deliver low and ultimately zero emissions shipping. In order to further develop technically-sound and proportionate policy measures to meet the Department’s ambition for a zero emissions maritime sector, the Department is now focused on reviewing and where necessary establishing the evidence base needed for effective policymaking. This Call for Evidence forms part of this important information-gathering process and is intended to illuminate areas of the sector where data is currently sparse or lacking. 
 
 
 
 

 

You're really worried about what might happen in 31 years if the government keeps to its current policy unchanged?  Here's a picture of a mobile phone from 34 years ago.  Ten hours to charge, 30 minutes talk time, weighed 11lb, cost £1,650 (equivalent to £4,500 now). This is how much battery technology has improved.

 

I'm prepared to bet serious cash that in 15 years every new narrowboat coming out of a manufacturer in the UK is electric powered. Not because there's any kind of law but because it'll be the sensible option.

 

Thank heaven there weren't internet forums when horses were phased out for steam or when diesels first hit the waterways. Why are people so terrified of change? I remember almost exactly the same arguments when leaded petrol was phased out and catalytic converters were mandated in new cars. Armageddon was predicted. And, as always, it didn't materialise.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The main problem with 100% bio according to that link earlier, is heavily limited storage time.

 

Advice is to use all of it within 45 days of purchase. Fat lot of good on a hobby boat, only any good for those who cruise most days. 

 

 

And not much use when there is nowhere on the cut to buy it.

 

I have large enough tanks for 2900 litres so can get a tanker delivery, but, it will have gone off before I can use it.

[Flyboy]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And not much use when there is nowhere on the cut to buy it.

 

I have large enough tanks for 2900 litres so can get a tanker delivery, but, it will have gone off before I can use it.

Biofuel absorbs moisture big time, so diesel bug would be a major problem.

[GUMPY]

3 hours ago, Flyboy said:

That's interesting, Beta seems to have changed their tune. It clearly states in the manuals that the warranty is void if you use more than 7% biofuel.

https://betamarine.co.uk/literature-downloads-uk-inland-waterways/#panel15618968553

Possibly still is I was specifically asking about older Beta engines not new ones.

Mine is 1993.

3 hours ago, Flyboy said:

And flexible rubber fuel lines will probably have to be changed too.

I did mention rubber much earlier 

As for going off I used to buy bio in 200L lots would last me 6-8 weeks no problems on that time scale.

[Flyboy]

22 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Possibly still is I was specifically asking about older Beta engines not new ones.

Mine is 1993.

I did mention rubber much earlier 

As for going off I used to buy bio in 200L lots would last me 6-8 weeks no problems on that time scale.

I would have thought that the newer engines would be more biofuel friendly, this appears not to be the case.

[cuthound]

17 hours ago, StephenA said:

Net Zero yes, well close to.

 

Any internal combustion engine will produce NOx whatever it's fuel. The NOx comes from the engine burning air, which contains around 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen.

The internal combustion engine will also produce other combustion products such as soot (particulates), any if the fuel is carbon (plant) based carbon dioxide and monoxide.

[Alan de Enfield]

46 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I did mention rubber much earlier 

I wonder if that's why Rusty is no longer posting "perish the thought"

 

 

[peterboat]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I wonder if that's why Rusty is no longer posting "perish the thought"

 

 

God bless this hot weather a "lady" got out of her car wearing a very short skirt and no bloomers! it was a stroke of luck good car position [low to ground] and Paul and I admiring her sports car perfik just perfik

[TrippinAround]

On 24/07/2019 at 23:55, StephenA said:

I did a calculation based on the Government's plan to get rid of gas powered CH. In our street at peak load time in the early evening in winter when everyone has the CH on and the cars plugged in on rapid charge we would need 240MW.

 

When it comes to canal charging you'd really need rapid charge (well 3-4 hour charging). Look at Gnosall - all those visitor moorings. Imagine each and every boat on those moorings charging overnight.  How much power would that be?

 

I just can't ever see the canal system getting the infrastructure to allow all the moving boats to charge up each and every night.

Cars in most cases will not need to charge at peak times. They will charge in the early mornings using cheaper tariff rates when people are tucked up in bed.

[TrippinAround]

On 25/07/2019 at 04:52, Flyboy said:

You must be joking. 3kw is about 4HP, factor in inefficiencies of the motor and it will be considerably less.  I'd like to see your boat perform with a 4HP outboard on the back. 

Electric motors are much more efficient than diesel. And you can not convert 3Kw motors so easily to HP when it comes to power at the propeller. 

[TrippinAround]

On 24/07/2019 at 15:47, frangar said:

So you have no answers...

 

If you think NOX will be reduced dramatically by stopping boating you are more delusional than I thought. There are many many more Diesel engines in everything from diggers to back

up generators...and they aren’t going to disappear either. What’s your magic cure for those applications? 

Perhaps you do not realize that Caterpillar has electric bulldozers, JCB is going electric too. Some of the largest mine earth movers are electric, robotic too.

[TrippinAround]

On 25/07/2019 at 12:42, StephenA said:

 

Thanks for posting that - so that suggests more a move to 100% biofuels as one of the various options.

The smell of used chip fryer oil when a canal boat passes will drive people crazy or to the riverside chippies ?

[StephenA]

5 hours ago, jakk said:

Cars in most cases will not need to charge at peak times. They will charge in the early mornings using cheaper tariff rates when people are tucked up in bed.

Which is fine unless you are in the situation that you might have to leave your house at any time during the night and drive a couple of hundred miles - which is a situation I was in moderately recently.

[furnessvale]

5 hours ago, jakk said:

Perhaps you do not realize that Caterpillar has electric bulldozers, JCB is going electric too. Some of the largest mine earth movers are electric, robotic too.

I'd love to see the solar panels on the roof of one of those.  More seriously I presume they work in a prescribed area using a BIG extension lead?

 

George

[frangar]

5 hours ago, jakk said:

Perhaps you do not realize that Caterpillar has electric bulldozers, JCB is going electric too. Some of the largest mine earth movers are electric, robotic too.

You mean the jcb (very) mini digger that works for 2 hours being used intensively then needs 8 hours plugged into a diesel genny via a 110v site transformer as high voltage isn’t allowed on site & often grid  power isn’t available....

[GUMPY]

 

[Johny London]

Boats don't need to recharge quickly - overnight would be more than fast enough. Most places where there are vm's, there's already electric nearby (housing / street lighting etc etc) - it can't be that difficult can it? Then off into the wilds for however long running off solar only? The large solar arrays needed to recharge drive batteries will ensure the domestic leccy never runs low.