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Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways


GUMPY

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Agreed - but, you were comparing 30 million cars to 30k boats.

 

The consultation is only for boats that remain in UK waters - and boats that go to 'other countries' will not have to comply.

That leaves 'coastal shipping' (is there much of that these days), coastal leisure boats and Inland waterway boats.

 

"Shipping" is unlikely to have any effect on the use of diesel - particularly as ships and ferries use 'heavy fuel-oil'.

I think that as the fishing industry relies heavily on diesel they will have a big input on the consultation.

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27 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Mate you dont know what you are on about! My boat cruises at 3KW at 3mph, it has 23KW if needed[ 30 HP] and it works well, the other boat I converted a broads cruiser hardly uses any power to cruise. JohnV a proper commercial electrician went on my boat the other week and he watched the numbers it was a lovely sunny day and we were getting over 3KW coming in from solar so I was using nothing out of the batteries in fact I was putting charge in them! When I get back from holiday I am putting on another 1200watts of solar to take me up to 4.9kw of solar so I see no issues with my cruising pattern or domestic use ever

You'll be telling us next your generating so much electricity your putting it back into the grid. :D

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2 hours ago, peterboat said:

Mike I can cruise for over 5 hours a day in the sun, but choose not to, I suspect a full size narrowboat will get about 2.4kw of solar on it and have a good range with the same batteries as me, also they would need less than my 3kw to do 3mph. Thats my only observation on an accurate  what will happen

ps I am retired so this conversion was for fun like the last one I did

The key point being in the sun. In December January best estimates are around 10% for solar charging so you could cruise for 0.5 of a hour or about a mile. The hire boat industry would laugh at that, and it gives those who hate moving a ready reason to stay put for 3 or more months.

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42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Agreed - but, you were comparing 30 million cars to 30k boats.

 

The consultation is only for boats that remain in UK waters - and boats that go to 'other countries' will not have to comply.

That leaves 'coastal shipping' (is there much of that these days), coastal leisure boats and Inland waterway boats.

 

"Shipping" is unlikely to have any effect on the use of diesel - particularly as ships and ferries use 'heavy fuel-oil'.

I was comparing 30M cars to 30k boats because this is a forum about canal boats, not saltwater boats or coastal shipping ?

 

As I'm sure you're well aware, heavy fuel oil use by shipping contributes far more pollution than diesel use by coastal vessels, I just didn't separate out the exact fuel fraction because I don't have OCD...

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51 minutes ago, Jerra said:

We clearly have different opinions on how govt will work.   I would agree the amount of difference it will make to the overall pollution would make it pointless.  However I don't think they would be doing it for the effect on pollution, they would/will be doing it to send a clear strong message to others that they are serious and other changes will be coming along.   Hopefully asap.

You'd think the government would have better things to do than trying to take away the transport means of a small but vociferous minority who contribute much less than 0.1% of the pollution that cars do, and then facing an uphill battle about not only how unfair it is but how completely pointless when you look at the numbers. Unless you think that all governments are inherently evil and there's a conspiracy against narrowboaters inside them ?

 

If they want to send a clear and strong message about pollution and CO2 emissions there are far easier and more effective ways for them to do this than picking a fight with canal boaters...

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14 hours ago, frangar said:

So you have no answers...

 

If you think NOX will be reduced dramatically by stopping boating you are more delusional than I thought. There are many many more Diesel engines in everything from diggers to back

up generators...and they aren’t going to disappear either. What’s your magic cure for those applications? 

I think you are correct in that he has no answers, but he actually seems to be saying that his boat serves his purpose such that, when the regs hit, “I’m alright Jack”. I think he has also written to the minister to tell him this, as part of the consultation.

 

He adds to this that something is coming, whether you like it or not - He doesn’t need to care.  Unless you can convince the various different ministers who will be in charge between now and then, it will be something that inconveniences you. Given this, you should be aware of it, and prepare for it.

 

What we should also be very aware of is that, it doesn’t matter whether what government actually does is good for us overall, or will achieve their stated goals, they will do what they decide, regardless. In the future they can always fall back on the, “We didn’t get it quite right, lessons have been learned, and we will do better in the future”, get out, or the “Nuffink to do wiv’ me guv’”, or, “I promised nothing of the sort........ “.

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13 minutes ago, IanD said:

I was comparing 30M cars to 30k boats because this is a forum about canal boats, not saltwater boats or coastal shipping

That is the problem with many boaters and even this forum.

 

Far to divided.

If the 'users' could get their acts together and fall behind one 'authority' then we would have a much greater say in things.

 

The RYA, representing its members (part of the 150k + lumpy water boaters) does an excellent job of legal representation and even involved in the negotiations with the EU on Red diesel, and, taking the Belgium Government to task when they tried to fine boats for having traces of red diesel on arrival in Belgium waters.

 

Belgium eventually agreed to drop the charges.

 

image.png.2db76490625bac2ef3c8e4ab1d44a802.png

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1 hour ago, Detling said:

The key point being in the sun. In December January best estimates are around 10% for solar charging so you could cruise for 0.5 of a hour or about a mile. The hire boat industry would laugh at that, and it gives those who hate moving a ready reason to stay put for 3 or more months.

For many people who want to cruise for longer and hire boats solar isn't enough, plug-in charging is needed. Peterboat is OK without it because he doesn't want to cruise more than a few hours at a time, or in winter, or when the sun doesn't shine, but he's the exception...

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Yes, but the change came because folk considered that horseless carriages performed better not because the government imposed a restriction on the dropping of horse poo.

For boaters, it is more about what they do to trucks than cars which is important.

Curiously 

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/

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2 hours ago, Flyboy said:

You'll be telling us next your generating so much electricity your putting it back into the grid. :D

 

2 hours ago, Detling said:

The key point being in the sun. In December January best estimates are around 10% for solar charging so you could cruise for 0.5 of a hour or about a mile. The hire boat industry would laugh at that, and it gives those who hate moving a ready reason to stay put for 3 or more months.

 

2 hours ago, IanD said:

I was comparing 30M cars to 30k boats because this is a forum about canal boats, not saltwater boats or coastal shipping ?

 

As I'm sure you're well aware, heavy fuel oil use by shipping contributes far more pollution than diesel use by coastal vessels, I just didn't separate out the exact fuel fraction because I don't have OCD...

 

2 hours ago, IanD said:

You'd think the government would have better things to do than trying to take away the transport means of a small but vociferous minority who contribute much less than 0.1% of the pollution that cars do, and then facing an uphill battle about not only how unfair it is but how completely pointless when you look at the numbers. Unless you think that all governments are inherently evil and there's a conspiracy against narrowboaters inside them ?

 

If they want to send a clear and strong message about pollution and CO2 emissions there are far easier and more effective ways for them to do this than picking a fight with canal boaters...

 

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

I think you are correct in that he has no answers, but he actually seems to be saying that his boat serves his purpose such that, when the regs hit, “I’m alright Jack”. I think he has also written to the minister to tell him this, as part of the consultation.

 

He adds to this that something is coming, whether you like it or not - He doesn’t need to care.  Unless you can convince the various different ministers who will be in charge between now and then, it will be something that inconveniences you. Given this, you should be aware of it, and prepare for it.

 

What we should also be very aware of is that, it doesn’t matter whether what government actually does is good for us overall, or will achieve their stated goals, they will do what they decide, regardless. In the future they can always fall back on the, “We didn’t get it quite right, lessons have been learned, and we will do better in the future”, get out, or the “Nuffink to do wiv’ me guv’”, or, “I promised nothing of the sort........ “.

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That is the problem with many boaters and even this forum.

 

Far to divided.

If the 'users' could get their acts together and fall behind one 'authority' then we would have a much greater say in things.

 

The RYA, representing its members (part of the 150k + lumpy water boaters) does an excellent job of legal representation and even involved in the negotiations with the EU on Red diesel, and, taking the Belgium Government to task when they tried to fine boats for having traces of red diesel on arrival in Belgium waters.

 

Belgium eventually agreed to drop the charges.

 

image.png.2db76490625bac2ef3c8e4ab1d44a802.png

 

1 hour ago, IanD said:

For many people who want to cruise for longer and hire boats solar isn't enough, plug-in charging is needed. Peterboat is OK without it because he doesn't want to cruise more than a few hours at a time, or in winter, or when the sun doesn't shine, but he's the exception...

Right I converted my boat for various reasons the first was I knew this consultation was coming, I dont like cruising in diesel boats because they are noisy, smelly and diesel has become very difficult to get on the cut up here. it is going to go up in price dramatically, NOX in towns and cities is a problem and why should boats be exempt? and finally the range I get on solar only has to suit me, I dont want to cruise for 10 hours daily I would rather cut my throat with a blunt razor blade!!!

You have to talk with one voice on this, if I am honest you dont have a snowballs hope in hell, because the little chart didnt mention the status quo, at best real historic boats might be exempt, old engines in modern boats I cant see surviving,

I am not all right Jack I am helping some other boaters with conversions similar to mine, I just happened to be an early conversion.

When I am up to nearly 5KW of solar I am sure I will be fine to cruise a bit even in winter and my electrical needs will be covered by this as well.

And finally at the moment I could sell electricity to the grid, but instead its running my Immersion heater so hot water a plenty is the order of the day!!

I really am not going to post on this thread anymore because Mike knows what is coming and for him its the loss of his vintage engines which I understand, life isnt fair but this NOX problem wont be sorted whilst ever people dont realise they are the problem and if we dont change we the problem will go away.

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4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

NOX problem wont be sorted whilst ever people dont realise they are the problem and if we dont change we the problem will go away.

Run out of Greenies have a virutual greenie for this alone.

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The thing nobody mentions is cost.

 I for one am not living on a government final salary pension so could not afford to do an electric conversion even if it could meet my boating needs, so selling up and taking the hit is all I will be able to do.

I doubt that many NB will be able to get enough solar on their roofs to power them all day every day.

Anyway NOX is  local pollution so it doesn't threaten the survival of the planet the way some gasses, CO2 for one,  do. It might hasten the demise of some of the weaker members of the population but so what, this world we live in needs population  reduction in order to survive.

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3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

The thing nobody mentions is cost.

 

Ahnm, I keep mentioning the cost, and how it will cleanse the cut of the less well off boaters who simply will not be able to afford to convert to leccy.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Ahnm, I keep mentioning the cost, and how it will cleanse the cut of the less well off boaters who simply will not be able to afford to convert to leccy.

 

 

Ok 

The sad bit is that vintage slow revving diesels produce less nox than new ones but it will be a blanket ban.

And for you its a double hit as gas is being phased out from domestic heating so bang goes the job of repairing boilers :(

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1 minute ago, Loddon said:

Ok 

The sad bit is that vintage slow revving diesels produce less nox than new ones but it will be a blanket ban.

And for you its a double hit as gas is being phased out from domestic heating so bang goes the job of repairing boilers :(

 

Most of my work is repairing electric boilers.....

 

 

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The botton line is that the big polluters like USA, China & India are not going to do anything about reducing co2 & nox. The Uk's banning of oil burning engines will have hardly any effect on the world pollution problem but will cause a lot of grief for the uk's population.

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4 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

The botton line is that the big polluters like USA, China & India are not going to do anything about reducing co2 & nox. The Uk's banning of oil burning engines will have hardly any effect on the world pollution problem but will cause a lot of grief for the uk's population.

And that’s why we need to stand firm and make our voices heard. I’m thoroughly fed up of politicians deciding what’s best for us. 

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So, in the near future fossil fuels will probably be taxed beyond affordability and eventually banned.

All boats, homes, offices, boats, ships, trains, planes and industry will run on electrickery.

Meanwhile many UK powerstations will be bought up/built by foreigners (French, Chinese?)

All eggs in one basket springs to mind.

 

Solution??

Dilithium crystals of course.

They worked ok for Kirk.

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5 hours ago, IanD said:

The newer battery technologies like the one I posted would easily allow you to have a 24h battery, you'd just have to pay for it. Or maybe rent it, and add it onto the boat system only when needed for long journeys.

No one is saying that the battery capacity is the major problem or even recharge time via a mains plug in. What is the major problem is where do you get the electricity from outside of a marina. As always the big issue is not discharging your battery, but being able to recharge it. Generators also use fossil fuel so can't be the solution, solar requires a massive roof and is not the solution for shady moorings or in the depths of winter. I would love an electric boat, as a retired electronic/electrical engineer it is right up my street, much more so than the smelly oily stuff. But to move for about 2-3 hours every few day, the odd day needing to be a lot more my max day was 12 hours. All this in a 57 foot narrowboat capable of river cruising against the current my long day was punching current for a few hours. The only option I currently see is hydrogen currently but that has problems to.

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2 hours ago, Jerra said:

Run out of Greenies have a virutual greenie for this alone.

Jerra for you I will make an exception, we both know how sticky this situation is, I do my bit not for me but my kids and grand kids! I am 61 and if I am lucky will die of old age, I want the younger generation to have the same choice

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1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Jerra for you I will make an exception, we both know how sticky this situation is, I do my bit not for me but my kids and grand kids! I am 61 and if I am lucky will die of old age, I want the younger generation to have the same choice

But by having kids you have added to the problem....there is simply too many people for the world to support. As I’m mercifully child free through choice & sensible planning I shall use that to offset my vintage diesel and elderly Land Rover. 

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14 minutes ago, smiler said:

Solution??

Dilithium crystals of course.

They worked ok for Kirk.

And as everyone knows, you’ll still be able to buy petrol in 2346 - witness young Kirk in his step-father’s Mustang. 

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