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Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways


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7 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

As for not having a choice I concur the internal combustion engine will one day be superseded. I’m very much less convinced it’s total demise will be any time soon or that it’s long term replacement is electric propulsion.

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

None of modern conveniences is necessary and we could all return to the cave ages with equally short life spans and illnesses that are excruciating. Human society moves forwards - it cannot go backwards.

If you would like to point out where I suggested it should go back to cave man times I would be very grateful.

 

The point is if we want our species (or indeed any species other than perhaps Cockroaches) to survive.  We will have to have to change and make what many today would call sacrifices e.g. less travel and by different means.

 

What so many, and it would seem you are in this group, don't seem to accept is that we are currently like lemmings dashing head first towards the edge of the cliff.  It is denial which is leading to the extinction of the human race if not the planet.

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6 hours ago, Jerra said:

To me this sums up the whole problem and the reason the human race is very probably doomed.

 

People refuse to accept the need to change quickly and will be in denial until (they hope) technology will allow them to cary on with their current style and standard of living.  Complete refusal to accept we must all change and what we are able to do will reduce.

I agree the human race is probably doomed but disagree on the reason for this.

 

As long as, from virtually the cradle, people are brainwashed into believing that happiness is unattainable without amassing lots of largely unnecessary items, and the capitalist system provides for this with ever increasing growth, we are doomed. 

 

World economic activity, at current levels of growth, will increase by over 90% by 2050. This is the problem, not that some bloke in the street is a dinosaur, and refuses to change his diesel engine to an electric one.  

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1 minute ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I agree the human race is probably doomed but disagree on the reason for this.

 

As long as, from virtually the cradle, people are brainwashed into believing that happiness is unattainable without amassing lots of largely unnecessary items, and the capitalist system provides for this with ever increasing growth, we are doomed. 

 

World economic activity, at current levels of growth, will increase by over 90% by 2050. This is the problem, not that some bloke in the street is a dinosaur, and refuses to change his diesel engine to an electric one.  

Basically if you combine our lines of discussion we are both basically saying the same thing.  It is the "I want to cruise 13 hrs" when in the past people would have been happy with any cruise at all attitude.  This being a boating forum I stuck to that but it is an example of growth which is clearly not sustainable if we were all to want to cruise for 13 hours.

 

Yes growth is the problem, Peterboat gets derided as he will only be able to cruise for an hour or two.  Which is better to be able to baot at all (even if greatly reduced) or no boating.

 

If we are to survive people have to accept there is a problem and realise they are going to have to reduce many things.  Technology can probably mitigate things if we accept we will have to live with less and reduce our demands.

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7 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Basically if you combine our lines of discussion we are both basically saying the same thing.  It is the "I want to cruise 13 hrs" when in the past people would have been happy with any cruise at all attitude.  This being a boating forum I stuck to that but it is an example of growth which is clearly not sustainable if we were all to want to cruise for 13 hours.

 

Yes growth is the problem, Peterboat gets derided as he will only be able to cruise for an hour or two.  Which is better to be able to baot at all (even if greatly reduced) or no boating.

 

If we are to survive people have to accept there is a problem and realise they are going to have to reduce many things.  Technology can probably mitigate things if we accept we will have to live with less and reduce our demands.

OK. The problem is that governments have made no effort whatsoever to reduce growth. Their focus is on mitigation of the damage caused by said growth, ignoring the root cause, the nub of the problem.

Edited by The Welsh Cruiser
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4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Basically if you combine our lines of discussion we are both basically saying the same thing.  It is the "I want to cruise 13 hrs" when in the past people would have been happy with any cruise at all attitude.  This being a boating forum I stuck to that but it is an example of growth which is clearly not sustainable if we were all to want to cruise for 13 hours.

 

Yes growth is the problem, Peterboat gets derided as he will only be able to cruise for an hour or two.  Which is better to be able to baot at all (even if greatly reduced) or no boating.

 

If we are to survive people have to accept there is a problem and realise they are going to have to reduce many things.  Technology can probably mitigate things if we accept we will have to live with less and reduce our demands.

I can cruise for five hours on batteries and longer if the sun is shining, my choice is to do less. Next week I am off for a two week cruise, how long and how far I will go is immaterial, as long as we enjoy the holiday, and that is the point. I will post how it goes and get the usual replies but in truth I couldn't care less ? it's good that at least a few of us care

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

At the moment NOX is what the courts have said must be reduced so that is a diesel problem so the government has to sort it. As Mike says we have other problems but with luck we will reduce those with electrification from clean sources, which is ongoing. Anyway anybody filled in the consultation?

NOX is actually a problem with burning hydrogen - NOX is produced at high burn temperatures which is why Diesel produces more than petrol.

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45 minutes ago, Jerra said:

If you would like to point out where I suggested it should go back to cave man times I would be very grateful.

 

The point is if we want our species (or indeed any species other than perhaps Cockroaches) to survive.  We will have to have to change and make what many today would call sacrifices e.g. less travel and by different means.

 

What so many, and it would seem you are in this group, don't seem to accept is that we are currently like lemmings dashing head first towards the edge of the cliff.  It is denial which is leading to the extinction of the human race if not the planet.

I am not denying for one moment that  change is needed. But what I am saying is that just arguing that we should all stop doing what we enjoy/need/expect will ultimately be unsuccessful, especially in a democracy. We also need to be much more vigilant about the dangers of small incremental steps taken opportunistically that are not moderated by a clear route to where we want to be - if we can agree where that is!

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37 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

OK. The problem is that governments have made no effort whatsoever to reduce growth. Their focus is on mitigation of the damage caused by said growth, ignoring the root cause, the nub of the problem.

This is of course true, but political parties only do what they feel will give them enough support to win the next election.  They need to know enough of the population want change and then there may be progress.

 

There is no point sitting back and saying I will do nothing until the government does, as the government will do nothing.   It is/will be hard enough tochange politicians even if the public want it unless they make it very clear.

37 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I can cruise for five hours on batteries and longer if the sun is shining, my choice is to do less. Next week I am off for a two week cruise, how long and how far I will go is immaterial, as long as we enjoy the holiday, and that is the point. I will post how it goes and get the usual replies but in truth I couldn't care less ? it's good that at least a few of us care

Sorry Peter I was merely snatching figures out of the air to illustrate a point.  I suspect we will all need to get happy with less cruising.

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1 hour ago, StephenA said:

NOX is actually a problem with burning hydrogen - NOX is produced at high burn temperatures which is why Diesel produces more than petrol.

Strangely enough old IDI Diesel's produced little NOX but progress to modern high speed DI diesels has made a problem! As for hydrogen for most car/commercials they arnt interested in chasing wild dreams

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14 hours ago, StephenA said:

NOX is actually a problem with burning hydrogen - NOX is produced at high burn temperatures which is why Diesel produces more than petrol.

 

NOX is produced by burning air at high temperatures. Air is 78% nitrogen  and 21% oxygen.

 

13 hours ago, peterboat said:

Strangely enough old IDI Diesel's produced little NOX but progress to modern high speed DI diesels has made a problem! As for hydrogen for most car/commercials they arnt interested in chasing wild dreams

 

This is because modern diesels are turbocharged, thus pumping in more air to be burnt on every combustion cycle.

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6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

NOX is produced by burning air at high temperatures. Air is 78% nitrogen  and 21% oxygen.

 

 

This is because modern diesels are turbocharged, thus pumping in more air to be burnt on every combustion cycle.

 

And it is also why modern turbocharged diesels are more fuel efficient.

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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

NOX is produced by burning air at high temperatures. Air is 78% nitrogen  and 21% oxygen.

 

 

This is because modern diesels are turbocharged, thus pumping in more air to be burnt on every combustion cycle.

 

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

And it is also why modern turbocharged diesels are more fuel efficient.

But ad we have discovered more dangerous to humans in the short term

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22 hours ago, peterboat said:

Strangely enough old IDI Diesel's produced little NOX but progress to modern high speed DI diesels has made a problem! As for hydrogen for most car/commercials they arnt interested in chasing wild dreams

At the moment, an all electric hire boat is also a wild dream. Both, and other ideas, may yet come to fruiting especially if there is enough investment, both ion the technology and the infrastructure. Not much sign of either at present.

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41 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

At the moment, an all electric hire boat is also a wild dream. Both, and other ideas, may yet come to fruiting especially if there is enough investment, both ion the technology and the infrastructure. Not much sign of either at present.

Somebody better tell that hire company that uses them that they don't work ? I watched them on you Tube the other week

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43 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Somebody better tell that hire company that uses them that they don't work ? I watched them on you Tube the other week

Beaten by a short head, well quite a long head acctually several lengths.   I was just going to draw attention to that.

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3 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Beaten by a short head, well quite a long head acctually several lengths.   I was just going to draw attention to that.

Better than that remember Tim and Pru in Portugal on that electric cruiser?  I had better Google it to be certain but I wm sure it was?

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Somebody better tell that hire company that uses them that they don't work ? I watched them on you Tube the other week

Were they on a one week hire hell bent on doing a 10 day ring so doing 14 hour days..? The only YouTube videos I can find for electric hire boats are mainly day boats.

 

 

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2 hours ago, peterboat said:

Somebody better tell that hire company that uses them that they don't work ? I watched them on you Tube the other week

Can you post the link or the URL please. I'm sure a lot of people would find that most interesting.

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I think today we did less than that in my friends boat, we seemed to be stuck at every lock for a long! By the time we pulled in I had lost the will to live! I really don't like cruising for more than 3 hours daily, all those places we just cruised past without visiting such a waste

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