Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways

[noddyboater]

24 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Until its banned from the place where you want to go, the world is changing and its not in ICEs favour, its a fact of life and at some point you will realise that. Me I cant wait until I can get rid of my cars I get no joy from driving in a poison atmosphere and ever going traffic snarl ups

There are Teslas on the road with over 500K on the clock with their original battery packs and running gear how much pollution have they saved over that time

But surely if you feel so strongly about your old, dirty, polluting cars you’d scrap them rather then pass them on to other people to use and carry on poisoning the atmosphere? 

[peterboat]

43 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

But surely if you feel so strongly about your old, dirty, polluting cars you’d scrap them rather then pass them on to other people to use and carry on poisoning the atmosphere? 

Both are Hybrids one still nearly hold the record as the most economical car at 149MPG and the van is full electric, so yes I feel happy at passing them on

[noddyboater]

5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Both are Hybrids one still nearly hold the record as the most economical car at 149MPG and the van is full electric, so yes I feel happy at passing them on

I was referring to your older fleet that have been passed on, definitely not hybrids! 

[peterboat]

51 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

I was referring to your older fleet that have been passed on, definitely not hybrids! 

Cars whose life isnt finished shouldnt be scrapped, natural wastage should happen, mostly more energy is used making a car than it uses, however that isnt always the case, some cars manage phenomenal mileages  and others use a lot of fuel.

The boat situation is an easy one all new boats have to be electric/hybrid/LPG and replacement engines diesel engines cant be sol/reconditioned eventually the boats would all be cleaned up, sledge hammers to crack nuts never works! To speed up things cheaper licenses  for full electric boats/Hybrids with large solar arrays would help 

[DandV]

19 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Cars whose life isnt finished shouldnt be scrapped, natural wastage should happen, mostly more energy is used making a car than it uses, however that isnt always the case, some cars manage phenomenal mileages  and others use a lot of fuel.

The boat situation is an easy one all new boats have to be electric/hybrid/LPG and replacement engines diesel engines cant be sol/reconditioned eventually the boats would all be cleaned up, sledge hammers to crack nuts never works! To speed up things cheaper licenses  for full electric boats/Hybrids with large solar arrays would help 

The first casualties will be new build boats that are built to float vintage engines and of course solid fuel heating.

Next stage will be new diesel engines have to be Euro, or is Britto 7? emission standard or better for boats.

Engine age related attrition will take care of most of the transition required.  There are much more significant polluters nationaly and internationally to concentrate on as a priority.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, DandV said:

 There are much more significant polluters nationaly and internationally to concentrate on as a priority.

 

This is missing the point. Inland waterways engines are not being targeted because they emit too much CO2. Yes the amount is tiny but they are in the firing linr because they are a soft target for making cheap political capital. 

[DandV]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is missing the point. Inland waterways engines are not being targeted because they emit too much CO2. Yes the amount is tiny but they are in the firing linr because they are a soft target for making cheap political capital. 

Unfortunately politics and rationality are mutually exclusive far too often for the good of the world.

[peterboat]

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is missing the point. Inland waterways engines are not being targeted because they emit too much CO2. Yes the amount is tiny but they are in the firing linr because they are a soft target for making cheap political capital. 

It all about NOX pollution which is local and lethal, plus the government were taken to court so they have no choice but to do something, and lets be honest none of which we do makes any difference? If they banned our diesel boats tomorrow by the end of August you would have solar and an electric motor on your boats Mike, and your whispergen would be on kero as well

8 hours ago, DandV said:

The first casualties will be new build boats that are built to float vintage engines and of course solid fuel heating.

Next stage will be new diesel engines have to be Euro, or is Britto 7? emission standard or better for boats.

Engine age related attrition will take care of most of the transition required.  There are much more significant polluters nationaly and internationally to concentrate on as a priority.

New boats arnt allowed to have vintage engines they were stopped years ago

[The Welsh Cruiser]

Having read this thread, it seems the government has been quite successful in its approach to this issue. Divide the nation into 2 groups: virtue signallers and deniers. Let them wage war in order to bring the issue to a head. Side with the virtue signallers by pricing out the deniers. Britain can then be a nation of proud virtue signallers on the global stage. Meanwhile, every day, more and more damage is occurring, damage that the bold virtue signallers' proud efforts barely put a dent into.

 

Until the day comes when someone of influence declares that the human species has come as far as it can within its environment (economic and population growth, they are inextricably linked within the capitalist system), and people start listening to this person, we are finished.   

[frangar]

28 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

New boats arnt allowed to have vintage engines they were stopped years ago

I’m afraid you are wrong on that point. 

 

[MtB]

28 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It all about NOX pollution which is local and lethal, plus the government were taken to court so they have no choice but to do something, and lets be honest none of which we do makes any difference? If they banned our diesel boats tomorrow by the end of August you would have solar and an electric motor on your boats Mike, and your whispergen would be on kero as well

 

So banning diesel a few thousand boats most of which use diesel twice a year is gonna make a difference eh? What about the 60,000,000 diesel engines in the road vehicles being used daily and left out of the equation.

 

WC is right, its all about virtue signalling, not pollution. 

[cuthound]

12 hours ago, peterboat said:

LA's would be neither use or ornament Mike as a battery storage solution

I am going to have to tell my boat it doesnt work! the fact is looking at this consultation the option to stay as we are isnt on it so I suspect you aint going to get a choice!

 

Lithium ion batteries even more expensive than usual compared to lead acid for large storage solutions, because they require complex battery cooling and management solutions which lead acid doesn't.

 

Also in bulk storage use such as storing energy during the sunlit hours for use at night, their quick charge acceptance over lead acid becomes a moot point.

 

Add in their questionable recycling benefits (whilst lithium ion batteries are in theory recyclable, in practice only about 3% are because it is not economically viable to recycle them). At present 97% of lead acids are recycled.

 

At present no really big user (telecoms, data centres etc) of batteries have made the switch to lithium ion because the additional cost doesn't provide sufficient benefit. However that at change if lithium battery costs drop to the level of lead acids.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So banning diesel a few thousand boats most of which use diesel twice a year is gonna make a difference eh? What about the 60,000,000 diesel engines in the road vehicles being used daily and left out of the equation.

 

WC is right, its all about virtue signalling, not pollution. 

2018 - there are 299,000,000 cars on European roads of which (2017) 44% were diesel (dropped to 35.9% in 2018)

 

There are over 6,000,000 Trucks (presumably pretty much 100% diesel) in the EU of which the biggest 'fleet' is Poland with just over 1,000,000

 

Excluding off road vehicles, construction vehicles, etc there are estimated to be 1,015,000,000 (1.015 Billion) vehicles in use across the world.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

2018 - there are 299,000,000 cars on European roads of which (2017) 44% were diesel (dropped to 35.9% in 2018)

 

There are over 6,000,000 Trucks (presumably pretty much 100% diesel) in the EU of which the biggest 'fleet' is Poland with just over 1,000,000

 

Excluding off road vehicles, construction vehicles, etc there are estimated to be 1,015,000,000 (1.015 Billion) vehicles in use across the world.

 

So Peter claiming banning diesels from 35,000 boats on the waterways is actually gonna help, really is virtue signalling at its worst.

 

"Every little helps" really is twaddle. It doesn't help. I bet if truth were known, the road 'fleet' of diesels is expanding by many more than 35,000 diesel engines per year so any reduction in pollution from banning boat diesels will be almost instantly overwhelmed by the road diesel production. Never mind shipping and aviation expansion too.

 

Fiddling at the margins while Rome burns springs to mind.

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So Peter claiming banning diesels from 35,000 boats on the waterways is actually gonna help, really is virtue signalling at its worst.

 

"Every little helps" really is twaddle. It doesn't help. I bet if truth were known, the road 'fleet' of diesels is expanding by many more than 35,000 diesel engines per year so any reduction in pollution from banning boat diesels will be almost instantly overwhelmed by the road diesel production. Never mind shipping and aviation expansion too.

 

Fiddling at the margins while Rome burns springs to mind.

 

 

 

Don't forget that ALL UK inland (80,000+ boats including C&RT registered - not all diesels) and UK waters (sea) boats are affected so you can add in another 'lumpy-water' 200,000+ 'leisure vessels' + fishing boats / trawlers, Ferries, etc.

 

I'm sure that after the recent history of the problems of the fishing-fleet, they are going to welcome scrapping their diesels with 'open arms'.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[frangar]

Let’s not also forget Diesel engines used in construction plant & agriculture...oh and in the generators powering all those festivals the tree huggers are so fond of going to...one major “green”  festival I know of had a wind turbine supposedly powering the main stage.....in reality it was  a three phase motor powered by a thumping big diesel genny....looked pretty turning round tho.....

[The Welsh Cruiser]

Imagine the price of fish if all the trawlers were converted? Not that that would be considered. It seems OK to exclude swathes of the population from growing numbers of activities by pricing them out. Next, following exclusion, the same politicians who instigated the exclusions, who often state 'inclusion' as their driving force become very angry about the situation they themselves have created.

 

You couldn't make it up. 

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, frangar said:

Let’s not also forget Diesel engines used in construction plant & agriculture...oh and in the generators powering all those festivals the tree huggers are so fond of going to...one major “green”  festival I know of had a wind turbine supposedly powering the main stage.....in reality it was  a three phase motor powered by a thumping big diesel genny....looked pretty turning round tho.....

 

That's not unusual. Wind turbines are often rotating in conditions of no wind if you watch them and and compare with the weather. 

 

I constantly wonder why. Possibly like huge ship prop shafts they sieze when stationary or more likely as you say, simply done for effect. Draw power from the grid to spin them for political reasons, nothing more.

 

 

2 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

magine the price of fish if all the trawlers were converted? Not that that would be considered. It seems OK to exclude swathes of the population from growing numbers of activities by pricing them out.

 

Yes and this will happen to hard up boaters too. They will get forced off the water by these proposals. Is everyone here happy with that?

 

 

[Tumshie]

28 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Imagine the price of fish if all the trawlers were converted?

I wouldn't worry about that, we won't be eating fish for much longer; but panic not they're gonna take seaweed and mould it in to little fish shapes and call it vegan fish - we'll all be none the wiser so it'll be fine. 

 

-------

27 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Wind turbines are often rotating in conditions of no wind if you watch them and and compare with the weather. 

Which turbines are these? Are they the ones that are permanent structures and feed into the grid? 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Tumshie
formatting because posts merged. And spelling.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

Which tubings are these? are the the ones that are permanent structures and feed into the grid? 

 

 

Yes. All of them down south. The huge windfarm near Daventry, the once you csn see on the M25, the big bustard by the M4 at Reading. Some of them spin slowly, or quickly, in conditions of dead calm. Sometimes so slowly you can barely perceive the rotation but sometimes they whip around fast enough to create a decent wind, I reckon.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

That's not unusual. Wind turbines are often rotating in conditions of no wind if you watch them and and compare with the weather. 

Each wind turbine (well I know the 'sea' based ones do) have a generator built into them - the service boats have to go out of Gt Yarmouth (or wherever) with 1000's of litres and refuel the generators every week.

[MtB]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

Each wind turbine (well I know the 'sea' based ones do) have a generator built into them - the service boats have to go out of Gt Yarmouth (or wherever) with 1000's of litres and refuel the generators every week.

 

Hang on a minute, while I check the date.

 

Nope sorry, April Fools day has passed Alan. Pull the other one!

 

 

[Tumshie]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes. All of them down south. The huge windfarm near Daventry, the once you csn see on the M25, the big bustard by the M4 at Reading. Some of them spin slowly, or quickly, in conditions of dead calm. Sometimes so slowly you can barely perceive the rotation but sometimes they whip around fast enough to create a decent wind, I reckon.

Oh right - cos the post before mentioned a festival and to be honest festival is not the optimum environment for running turbines.  

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Hang on a minute, while I check the date.

 

Nope sorry, April Fools day has passed Alan. Pull the other one!

 

 

You really didn't know ?

 

Here is a quick snap-shot of some of the maintenance services provided by the company "C-Wind"

 

• Generator rental
• Experienced service & refuelling technician crews
• Refuelling services with specialised 16,000+ litre capacity workboats
• Generator management & reporting

[Tumshie]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You really didn't know ?

 

Here is a quick snap-shot of some of the maintenance services provided by the company "C-Wind"

 

• Generator rental
• Experienced service & refuelling technician crews
• Refuelling services with specialised 16,000+ litre capacity workboats
• Generator management & reporting

Could you provide a link to that please, cos it sounds interesting but I can't find anything on their website, I must be looking in the wrong place.