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Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways


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On 13/07/2019 at 10:33, peterboat said:

So what are you all going to say to this report that will make them decide that diesel has to stay because nothing else can replace it?

I have suggested converting engines to LPG which is much cleaner than diesel, and can be used to heat the boat and would be cleaner than a solid fuel stove.

Unless you can come with solid arguments you will not get anywhere with this consultation, and remember they can point to electric boats that are working and working well

Are they working well, or are they working well for people who accept much shorter cruising days.

 

What happens if you've had a run up through stoke in the rain in September and you stop for the night at Harecastle south portal. After a night on the boat are you going to have enough juice to make it through the tunnel first thing in the morning? Or is it a case of sit there for a half a day and get charged up again?

 

 

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3 minutes ago, StephenA said:

Are they working well, or are they working well for people who accept much shorter cruising days.

 

What happens if you've had a run up through stoke in the rain in September and you stop for the night at Harecastle south portal. After a night on the boat are you going to have enough juice to make it through the tunnel first thing in the morning? Or is it a case of sit there for a half a day and get charged up again?

 

 

And what exactly are you going to plug into for said charge?? All very well saying the infrastructure could be put in but someone will need to pay for it! 

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9 minutes ago, frangar said:

And what exactly are you going to plug into for said charge?? All very well saying the infrastructure could be put in but someone will need to pay for it! 

The sun obviously.

 

That's my whole concern about this push to electric - the infrastructure isn't there, and on board solar isn't going to work until both battery tech and solar tech has moved on significantly

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10 minutes ago, StephenA said:

Are they working well, or are they working well for people who accept much shorter cruising days.

 

What happens if you've had a run up through stoke in the rain in September and you stop for the night at Harecastle south portal. After a night on the boat are you going to have enough juice to make it through the tunnel first thing in the morning? Or is it a case of sit there for a half a day and get charged up again?

 

 

It takes us about 12 hours to get from Hull Marina to Wells Next Sea (about 60miles)

The instruments alone draw about 10 amps, add onto that leaving in the dark at 3:00am and there are the Nav lights to include

I'm not sure how coastal cruising leisure boats are expected to be able to achieve that on one 'charge', then get charged up enough overnight for 10 hours the next morning to Lowestoft.

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On 12/07/2019 at 19:40, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I salute your sense of humour!

 

Lets see now. Yer average CCer around here moors for 13 days 23.5 hours a fortnight, then moves for half an hour. During that stationary period most of them run their engine for an hour or three a day to get hot water and charge the batteries.

 

They are mostly too hard up to buy even a single solar panel let alone stump up £10k to have their diesels extracted and solar-powered electric drives and water heating installed.

 

What's not to like??? You must be kidding!

 

OH.... I geddit, is it a 'back door' method of cleansing the scruffy boats off the waterways. Is that what you mean?

 

 

I'm perfectly serious, as you well know Mike.

 

A large solar array for charging the propulsion batteries will mean there's always enough power to keep the domestic bank happy when you are not moving - as per Peterboats 3.7kw - I reckon he'll get enough even in the winter.

 

Boating has never been cheap - I calculated sometime ago that it costs me £14 per kw/h, using the engine as a genny, so solar and lithiums soon earn back their cost.

 

Nothing to to do with scruffy boats either, mine's not exactly a palace.

 

I DO use a webasto for water heating of course, but would be happy to look at other solutions.

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1 minute ago, Johny London said:

A large solar array for charging the propulsion batteries will mean there's always enough power to keep the domestic bank happy when you are not moving - as per Peterboats 3.7kw - I reckon he'll get enough even in the winter.

The cabin roof on my Cruiser is totally covered with as much solar as will fit (a single 170 watt panel)

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So I’ve had a lovely full days boating powered by a slow revving vintage diesel that’s got the usual positive comments from walkers on the towpath...now enjoying the fully charged batteries & plentiful hot water it’s also supplied...oh and no worries it’s not been a sunny day and if I can do a 12 hour day tomorrow....I really don’t think the 9 litres of diesel I’ve burned are comparable with the planes going over head or even the trains passing me....

 

 

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33 minutes ago, frangar said:

So I’ve had a lovely full days boating powered by a slow revving vintage diesel that’s got the usual positive comments from walkers on the towpath...now enjoying the fully charged batteries & plentiful hot water it’s also supplied...oh and no worries it’s not been a sunny day and if I can do a 12 hour day tomorrow....I really don’t think the 9 litres of diesel I’ve burned are comparable with the planes going over head or even the trains passing me....

 

 

Have you come across any figures which compare fuel per person per mile with your narrowboat.

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6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The oddest thing in that article is how they are using lithium ion (sic) batteries to store the leccy generated by the solar, and how the project is possible due to the price of them falling. I can't for the life of me figure out why they need to use lithium batts in the first place. LA batts would be far cheaper and work just as well. 

 

 

LA's would be neither use or ornament Mike as a battery storage solution

1 hour ago, StephenA said:

The sun obviously.

 

That's my whole concern about this push to electric - the infrastructure isn't there, and on board solar isn't going to work until both battery tech and solar tech has moved on significantly

I am going to have to tell my boat it doesnt work! the fact is looking at this consultation the option to stay as we are isnt on it so I suspect you aint going to get a choice!

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45 minutes ago, Johny London said:

Nothing to to do with scruffy boats either, mine's not exactly a palace.

 

I disagree. The scruffy boats one sees all over the system here and there, e.g the £500 yoghourt pots with no insulation and occupied by the bottom echelons of society are going to suffer horrendous collateral damage.

 

You are right boating well is not cheap. Boating with all expenses spared gets people a roof over their heads when their only other option is a shop doorway or a tent in the woods. I'm suggesting these people will be forced off the waterways in your happy world of 3.5kW OF solar and banks of lithium batteries. Are you ok with that? 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Have you come across any figures which compare fuel per person per mile with your narrowboat.

That’s not really the point is it?? Trains are more efficient that planes yet the government keeps on giving incentives to domestic air travel......and walking uses less fuel than a train! My point being that I can’t do my style of cruising with an electric powered boat...either now or I suspect in my lifetime...

10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

LA's would be neither use or ornament Mike as a battery storage solution

I am going to have to tell my boat it doesnt work! the fact is looking at this consultation the option to stay as we are isnt on it so I suspect you aint going to get a choice!

Your boat doesn’t work if you want to boat 8 hours a day every day whatever the weather or time of year....

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It takes us about 12 hours to get from Hull Marina to Wells Next Sea (about 60miles)

The instruments alone draw about 10 amps, add onto that leaving in the dark at 3:00am and there are the Nav lights to include

I'm not sure how coastal cruising leisure boats are expected to be able to achieve that on one 'charge', then get charged up enough overnight for 10 hours the next morning to Lowestoft.

Alan we both know they dont care what we think, their aim is to reduce emissions on inland waters by 2025, I have done the consultation stating I have converted to electric, no doubt others who have electric boats have done the same, people have to put up solutions not that it cant be done.  Hybrid LPG powered boats are a solution both for NOX and Particulate matter especially if solid fuel stoves go as well

2 minutes ago, frangar said:

That’s not really the point is it?? Trains are more efficient that planes yet the government keeps on giving incentives to domestic air travel......and walking uses less fuel than a train! My point being that I can’t do my style of cruising with an electric powered boat...either now or I suspect in my lifetime...

Your boat doesn’t work if you want to boat 8 hours a day every day whatever the weather or time of year....

They arnt interested, the world will keep on spinning if your boat is scrapped, which is one of the suggestions

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3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Alan we both know they dont care what we think, their aim is to reduce emissions on inland waters by 2025, I have done the consultation stating I have converted to electric, no doubt others who have electric boats have done the same, people have to put up solutions not that it cant be done.  Hybrid LPG powered boats are a solution both for NOX and Particulate matter especially if solid fuel stoves go as well

They arnt interested, the world will keep on spinning if your boat is scrapped, which is one of the suggestions

You really are quite sanctimonious aren’t you?? Maybe not everyone shares your viewpoint thankfully. 

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1 minute ago, frangar said:

That’s not really the point is it?? Trains are more efficient that planes yet the government keeps on giving incentives to domestic air travel......and walking uses less fuel than a train! My point being that I can’t do my style of cruising with an electric powered boat...either now or I suspect in my lifetime...

In which case your argument is a) a little selfish and b) not valid.  Selfish as you seem to be saying "I must be able to cruise in my style and to hell with the environment or infact the whole world.  Not valid because your comparision to trains and planes suggests people should not be using them.  It takes a train about 0.02 of a gallon to move a person say 12 st (75Kg) 1 mile how does that compere to your cruising rate?

Say 12 hours a day at 3 miles an hour =36 miles

 

9L = 15.8378 pints  so approx 2 miles to the pint or half a pint per mile.  How many on board?

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1 minute ago, frangar said:

That’s not really the point is it?? Trains are more efficient that planes yet the government keeps on giving incentives to domestic air travel......and walking uses less fuel than a train! My point being that I can’t do my style of cruising with an electric powered boat...either now or I suspect in my lifetime...

I cannot even get to my boat in an electric car.

 

320 miles - just over 5 1/2 hours non stop in the diesel engine car.

 

Real life tests tend to show the majority of EVs have a range of 150 miles but I reckon we'd be struggling to get 5 adults and all the boat supplies / gear into something like a BMW I3.

Add on lights, heaters, (or air-con) etc and the range drops.

I would need to have 2 recharges on the journey - apparently you can only do one 'rapid-charge' and then you must do a normal 'slow' (overnight) charge or you damage the batteries.

So now instead of taking 5 hours, it now takes 2 days and the cost of  hotel accommodation for 5.

 

I suppose I could pay £64,000 and get a Jaguar I pace and achieve 250 miles (real world testing)

 

I really don't see EVs as a practical option until something makes a 'step-change' in battery technology.

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6 minutes ago, frangar said:

You really are quite sanctimonious aren’t you?? Maybe not everyone shares your viewpoint thankfully. 

No I am not, I knew this was coming, its been as plain as the nose on my face! Everything says that diesel is bad, diesel car sales are dropping daily, electric car sales are going up daily, boat makers are producing electric and Hybrid boats, stamping our feet and holding our breath wont help, come up with a sensible reply to the consultation and send it in

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5 minutes ago, Jerra said:

In which case your argument is a) a little selfish and b) not valid.  Selfish as you seem to be saying "I must be able to cruise in my style and to hell with the environment or infact the whole world.  Not valid because your comparision to trains and planes suggests people should not be using them.  It takes a train about 0.02 of a gallon to move a person say 12 st (75Kg) 1 mile how does that compere to your cruising rate?

Say 12 hours a day at 3 miles an hour =36 miles

 

9L = 15.8378 pints  so approx 2 miles to the pint or half a pint per mile.  How many on board?

Taking your argument to it’s conclusion would mean that as boating for pleasure isn’t essential in any form then it should be totally banned....maybe everyone should submit a form to the government to justify their journey by whatever means. 

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I cannot even get to my boat in an electric car.

 

320 miles - just over 5 1/2 hours non stop in the diesel engine car.

 

Real life tests tend to show the majority of EVs have a range of 150 miles but I reckon we'd be struggling to get 5 adults and all the boat supplies / gear into something like a BMW I3.

Add on lights, heaters, (or air-con) etc and the range drops.

I would need to have 2 recharges on the journey - apparently you can only do one 'rapid-charge' and then you must do a normal 'slow' (overnight) charge or you damage the batteries.

So now instead of taking 5 hours, it now takes 2 days and the cost of  hotel accommodation for 5.

 

I suppose I could pay £64,000 and get a Jaguar I pace and achieve 250 miles (real world testing)

 

I really don't see EVs as a practical option until something makes a 'step-change' in battery technology.

Secondhand model s telsa 30K good range free supercharging, and yes most cars can do fast charging everytime, they have to have battery cooling and heating Nissan didnt bother

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1 minute ago, peterboat said:

No I am not, I knew this was coming, its been as plain as the nose on my face! Everything says that diesel is bad, diesel car sales are dropping daily, electric car sales are going up daily, boat makers are producing electric and Hybrid boats, stamping our feet and holding our breath wont help, come up with a sensible reply to the consultation and send it in

I’m afraid you are....and just to make your blood boil even more I can happily say as well as my 40 year old Land Rover I’ve just brought a brand new diesel SUV too....which I’m very happy with...and it does journeys that an EV can only dream about 

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1 minute ago, frangar said:

Taking your argument to it’s conclusion would mean that as boating for pleasure isn’t essential in any form then it should be totally banned....maybe everyone should submit a form to the government to justify their journey by whatever means. 

That isn't what I said and you know it.  Many on the train will be travelling for pleasure as you cruise for pleasure.

 

However without a concerted effort by everyone it is quite likely that in the years to come travel apart from that which is strictly necessary will be curtailed one way or another.

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1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Secondhand model s telsa 30K good range free supercharging, and yes most cars can do fast charging everytime, they have to have battery cooling and heating Nissan didnt bother

 

I just don't understand why I should spend £30k for a second hand car that's life-cycle will probably produces more pollution' than using my existing car will.

Scrap value on existing car ? (£100's. rather than £1000's Id guess)

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7 minutes ago, frangar said:

I’m afraid you are....and just to make your blood boil even more I can happily say as well as my 40 year old Land Rover I’ve just brought a brand new diesel SUV too....which I’m very happy with...and it does journeys that an EV can only dream about 

Until its banned from the place where you want to go, the world is changing and its not in ICEs favour, its a fact of life and at some point you will realise that. Me I cant wait until I can get rid of my cars I get no joy from driving in a poison atmosphere and ever going traffic snarl ups

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I just don't understand why I should spend £30k for a second hand car that's life-cycle will probably produces more pollution' than using my existing car will.

Scrap value on existing car ? (£100's. rather than £1000's Id guess)

There are Teslas on the road with over 500K on the clock with their original battery packs and running gear how much pollution have they saved over that time

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15 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Secondhand model s telsa 30K good range free supercharging, and yes most cars can do fast charging everytime, they have to have battery cooling and heating Nissan didnt bother

like most people spend 30K on a second hand car.

 

Getting back to boats - unless there is a huge investment in infrastructure moving to electric only boats would change boating for ever - I'd like to hear how I can do a september days boating in the rain, stop for the night on the boat and then get up at 6 the next morning to go through Harecastle tunnel without using a generator top-up to keep things lit up.

 

Now if someone can come up with a drop in Hybrid solution that provides : Traction power, domestic battery power, heat and 240V output  - then I'm sure that would sell quite well.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, StephenA said:

like most people spend 30K on a second hand car.

 

Getting back to boats - unless there is a huge investment in infrastructure moving to electric only boats would change boating for ever - I'd like to hear how I can do a september days boating in the rain, stop for the night on the boat and then get up at 6 the next morning to go through Harecastle tunnel without using a generator top-up to keep things lit up.

 

Now if someone can come up with a drop in Hybrid solution that provides : Traction power, domestic battery power, heat and 240V output  - then I'm sure that would sell quite well.

 

 

What you have to do is convince the consultation that these journeys are that important that the pollution you are creating doesnt matter, then nothing will change but if you read the consultation you will see that the status quo wasnt on the list reduction of emissions by 2025 was

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