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Consultation on exhaust emissions on inland waterways


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23 minutes ago, cuthound said:

No one has mentioned heating. A significant number have solid fuel stoves with diesel central heating as back up. 

 

With gas heating also to be banned it looks like boating will become a summer only leisure pastime, except for the hardest of souls

I have been wondering how @peterboat heats his boat & water when out cruising in winter?? Maybe he’s got a nuclear reactor under the deck....

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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The net effect of all this will be to clear the canals of all 'less well off' liveaboards. Does the team think this is a good idea? Its a side effect barely ever mentioned by anyone other than me. 

 

The law of unintended consequences !

Edited by Loddon
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2 minutes ago, Loddon said:

The law of unintended consequences !

 

Quite!

 

And there will be quite a few boaters who oppose scruffy boats and will see this as a back door method of cleansing the canals and gentrifying them for their own use. The rub will come when politicians notice the banning of diesel engines in boats results in only a small dent in diesel sales out on the cut...

 

The natural target for a test/trial of electric boats would be to make them mandatory for the hire boat industry first. 

 

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23 minutes ago, frangar said:

I have been wondering how @peterboat heats his boat & water when out cruising in winter?? Maybe he’s got a nuclear reactor under the deck....

He has a whispergen, you know the ones powered by diesel bless him. It might be LPG another fossil fuel?

16 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Quite!

 

And there will be quite a few boaters who oppose scruffy boats and will see this as a back door method of cleansing the canals and gentrifying them for their own use. The rub will come when politicians notice the banning of diesel engines in boats results in only a small dent in diesel sales out on the cut...

 

The natural target for a test/trial of electric boats would be to make them mandatory for the hire boat industry first. 

 

I agree Mike. There would be hire boats broken down littering the waterways within 24 hours all having to be recovered. hirers flatten their domestic batteries each and every day through clueless ( not their fault ) actions, god help us if the propulsion is by battery power.

Edited by mrsmelly
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8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

He has a whispergen, you know the ones powered by diesel bless him. It might be LPG another fossil fuel?

 

 

Whispergen's use the inherant inefficiency of a Stirling engine to heat the water, whilst driving a small generator.

 

Stirling engines, being external combustion e times, can use any heat source. If diesel is banned Peterboat could still run it, probably by burning £50 notes to provide the heat source. ?

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Do they have enough heat retention for use Nov-April ?

 

Yes providing you have a large enough boat to fit them in. 

 

Peter's next project will be converting an old cruise liner to use as a butty  and accommodate his storage heaters

Edited by cuthound
Spillung
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9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I use Kerosene for my whispergen, and my Rayburn is a multifuel model, I am looking for other ideas for heating the boat but as yet cant find anything that is clean and practical on a boat

Sail south for the winter ...

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So what are you all going to say to this report that will make them decide that diesel has to stay because nothing else can replace it?

I have suggested converting engines to LPG which is much cleaner than diesel, and can be used to heat the boat and would be cleaner than a solid fuel stove.

Unless you can come with solid arguments you will not get anywhere with this consultation, and remember they can point to electric boats that are working and working well

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think Peter also has a diesel fired Aga.

 

@peterboat Has going electric drive made much difference to the amount of diesel you buy?

 

Mike I havent bought diesel for over a year, and when I did it was bio diesel, I have added kero to the tank, but havent run the whispergen other than for a test run when I installed it at the beginning of the year. The 3.7KW of solar can be all switched to domestic use so even in the winter I get enough power from the sun, I am trying to clean up my lifestyle before the big sticks are brought out to force us

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3 hours ago, peterboat said:

So what are you all going to say to this report that will make them decide that diesel has to stay because nothing else can replace it?

I have suggested converting engines to LPG which is much cleaner than diesel, and can be used to heat the boat and would be cleaner than a solid fuel stove.

Unless you can come with solid arguments you will not get anywhere with this consultation, and remember they can point to electric boats that are working and working well

I don’t think there’s quite the battle that you portray. The vast majority of boaters have a diesel engine because that’s the default. Once alternatives are routinely available and not prohibitively more expensive things will change. It will be a result of influencing the market through legislation that this will happen. Diesel engines were inevitably going to be superseded as the principal form of canal boat propulsion from the very first day one was fitted in a canal boat.

 

Ultimately if someone really wants to keep a diesel engine they will almost certainly be able to do so but there may very well be a premium cost and/or restrictions. I may very well be one of those people depending on how soon things change but I don’t feel inclined to beat my chest in indignation over the issue.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg
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35 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

I don’t think there’s quite the battle that you portray. The vast majority of boaters have a diesel engine because that’s the default. Once alternatives are routinely available and not prohibitively more expensive things will change. It will be a result of influencing the market through legislation that this will happen. Diesel engines were inevitably going to be superseded as the principal form of canal boat propulsion from the very first day one was fitted in a canal boat.

 

Ultimately if someone really wants to keep a diesel engine they will almost certainly be able to do so but there may very well be a premium cost and/or restrictions. I may very well be one of those people depending on how soon things change but I don’t feel inclined to beat my chest in indignation over the issue.

 

JP

Its all right for you - I got 5 boat diesel engines, 2 diesel tractors engines, a 'digger' diesel engine, a 'dumper' diesel engine, a diesel engine car (and 3 petrol engine cars) and I'm just on a pension you know, how can I afford to change that lot ?

 

Mind you - I suppose moving out onto tidal waters will solve the 'boat problem'. I don't need to be on the Rivers.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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4 hours ago, peterboat said:

So what are you all going to say to this report that will make them decide that diesel has to stay because nothing else can replace it?

I have suggested converting engines to LPG which is much cleaner than diesel, and can be used to heat the boat and would be cleaner than a solid fuel stove.

Unless you can come with solid arguments you will not get anywhere with this consultation, and remember they can point to electric boats that are working and working well

Your idea of “working well” and mine are very different. FYI  I steered an electric trip boat (70ft narrowboat) for a season back in 1997...and that could just manage a day of trips before needing to be plugged into a charger which needed a 32a 240v supply overnight...and we had a get a tow home from a diesel boat if it had a hard day & we did an evening trip...unless there is a large amount of towpath infrastructure installed widespread electric drive won’t happen in my lifetime...it’s the same with cars...the charging infrastructure just won’t exist for a while yet. You may be happy with a couple of hours boating or driving....but that’s far from suitable for everyone. 

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Mind you - I suppose moving out onto tidal waters will solve the 'boat problem'. I don't need to be on the Rivers.

Only if you never come into a UK harbour.

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Remember the title of this consultation ?

Yes and if you read the document it seems to include UK ports as in Domestic shipping. I suppose you could register your vessels under a flag of convenience ;)

Edited by Loddon
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18 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Yes and if you read the document it seems to include UK ports as in Domestic shipping. I suppose you could register your vessels under a flag of convenience ;)

Indeed it does, however any boats making international voyages would appear to be excluded, so a quick trip over to Norway, Holland or France for the weekend should be sufficient.

 

The Call for Evidence is focused on those vessels that operate on a purely domestic basis and do not generally make international journeys ………………….

 

Hopefully their 'aim' will trump legislation.

 

The aim of the Plan is to promote innovation and encourage the uptake of zero emission technologies in the maritime sector, rather than prescribe a specific approach or set of measures for vessel owners and industry to take: 

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2 minutes ago, Harpur Hill said:

Thought the electrical types on here may be interested in this -

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/giant-batteries-and-cheap-solar-power-are-shoving-fossil-fuels-grid

 

HH

Everyday more and more clean energy is being made if we are lucky we might survive but everybody will have to do their bit and thats the hardest part

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6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Everyday more and more clean energy is being made if we are lucky we might survive but everybody will have to do their bit and thats the hardest part

 

The expanding world population ensures anyone doing their bit is immediately overwhelmed by the two new coal fired power stations being brought on line every month in the third world. 

 

Finding a way to stop people breeding would be FAR more effective than rich westerners getting electric cars in the long term.

 

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Harpur Hill said:

Thought the electrical types on here may be interested in this -

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/giant-batteries-and-cheap-solar-power-are-shoving-fossil-fuels-grid

 

HH

 

The oddest thing in that article is how they are using lithium ion (sic) batteries to store the leccy generated by the solar, and how the project is possible due to the price of them falling. I can't for the life of me figure out why they need to use lithium batts in the first place. LA batts would be far cheaper and work just as well. 

 

 

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