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larrysanders

Lock depths on The Rochdale?

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Can anyone help.  I usually use Canal Plan AC for things like this - however there's no stats for the fall of: 

 

Stubbing Upper Lock 

Todmorden Guillotine Lock 

Gauxholme Lowest Lock

 

Are the Rochdale lock depths listed anywhere?


Any help much appreciated. 

 

 

 

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We have just finally escaped from the Rochdale, and what was blindingly obvious was that many of the lock depths quoted in Nicholsons were wildly inaccurate.

To give an example of just how inaccurate Nicholson's lists Anthony Lock (77) as just 9' 7.5", whereas in reality it is the deepest on the canal, variously quoted elsewhere as 15' 1.5" or even 15' 4".

 

I could give other examples but Nicholson's is clearly not a reliable source for this particular canal.

9 minutes ago, larrysanders said:

oh thank you !   great tip.  will pick up a guide today. 

If you are relying on it for just this info, I would seriously save your money!

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Just now, alan_fincher said:

We have just finally escaped from the Rochdale, and what was blindingly obvious was that many of the lock depths quoted in Nicholsons were wildly inaccurate.

To give an example of just how inaccurate Nicholson's lists Anthony Lock (77) as just 9' 7.5", whereas in reality it is the deepest on the canal, variously quoted elsewhere as 15' 1.5" or even 15' 4".

 

I could give other examples but Nicholson's is clearly not a reliable source for this particular canal.

Alan, I'm producing a new BBC4 series called Canal Boat Diaries.   Any idea where I get further information then on lock depths for the Rochdale?  Is canal plan ac accurate for other parts of the system - as I've been using this source.

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4 minutes ago, larrysanders said:

Alan, I'm producing a new BBC4 series called Canal Boat Diaries.   Any idea where I get further information then on lock depths for the Rochdale?  Is canal plan ac accurate for other parts of the system - as I've been using this source.

i have absolutely no idea i'm afraid - all I am saying is that Nicholson is demonstrably not reliable for the Rochdale.  I don't know why, but having sat at the bottom of Anthony lock  twice, the 15 feet something figure is correct, and the 9 feet something one clearly a nonsense.  It certainly wasn't the only one that couldn't possibly be right, but for the three you are interested in, I really couldn't say.

Out of interest, I think Anthony Lock is probably the deepest in the country that is not as the result of a two former locks being replaced by just one, (as at Tuel Lane or Bath, for example).

Edited by alan_fincher

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4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:


To give an example of just how inaccurate Nicholson's lists Anthony Lock (77) as just 9' 7.5", whereas in reality it is the deepest on the canal, variously quoted elsewhere as 15' 1.5" or even 15' 4".

 

Anthony's Lock suffered significant subsidence while the canal was closed. Hence the upper part of the chamber is modern concrete above the older stonework, and above the lock the channel is piled and quite a lot higher than the towpath. The fall quoted in Nicholsons may be taken from an older source.

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6 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

We have just finally escaped from the Rochdale, and what was blindingly obvious was that many of the lock depths quoted in Nicholsons were wildly inaccurate.

To give an example of just how inaccurate Nicholson's lists Anthony Lock (77) as just 9' 7.5", whereas in reality it is the deepest on the canal, variously quoted elsewhere as 15' 1.5" or even 15' 4".

 

I could give other examples but Nicholson's is clearly not a reliable source for this particular canal.

If you are relying on it for just this info, I would seriously save your money!

That's interesting. I've always used Nicholson guides but never really taken any notice of the quoted lock depth accuracy.

 

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6 minutes ago, larrysanders said:

Alan, I'm producing a new BBC4 series called Canal Boat Diaries.   Any idea where I get further information then on lock depths for the Rochdale?  Is canal plan ac accurate for other parts of the system - as I've been using this source.

Try the Rochdale Canal Society.

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3 minutes ago, Cloudinspector said:

Try the Rochdale Canal Society.

Does it still exist? It has no trace online, and the founder and Secretary, Brian Holden died last year.

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25 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Anthony's Lock suffered significant subsidence while the canal was closed. Hence the upper part of the chamber is modern concrete above the older stonework, and above the lock the channel is piled and quite a lot higher than the towpath. The fall quoted in Nicholsons may be taken from an older source.

That seems like a very plausible explanation, and may well be the reason for other variations due to re-builds.

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3 minutes ago, larrysanders said:

Alan, I'm producing a new BBC4 series called Canal Boat Diaries.   Any idea where I get further information then on lock depths for the Rochdale?  Is canal plan ac accurate for other parts of the system - as I've been using this source.

any quoted depth is possibly innaccurate.

 

What you need to do is go to each lock and measure the depth from the bank when full, then again when empty.  Then calculate the drop.  Then post your findings here so we can all know too.

 

Also, tell us more about this tv series.

36 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Anthony's Lock suffered significant subsidence while the canal was closed. Hence the upper part of the chamber is modern concrete above the older stonework, and above the lock the channel is piled and quite a lot higher than the towpath. The fall quoted in Nicholsons may be taken from an older source.

Are you saying the canal level was raised in the pound above?  Otherwise the rebuilding wouldn't affect the drop.

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23 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

Are you saying the canal level was raised in the pound above?  Otherwise the rebuilding wouldn't affect the drop.

As I understand it lock 77 and the lower length of the pound above were raised as part of the restoration works to restore the original pound / lockside level. The pound below the lock is now at a lower level than before, and hence the lock rise has inceased. There are a couple of shallow locks just below, which is where I assume the difference is taken out.

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Curious what relevance the lock depths have for you and a TV programme? 

A lot of the stones in the older locks have stonemasons marks on them. 

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On 10/07/2019 at 13:16, David Mack said:

As I understand it lock 77 and the lower length of the pound above were raised as part of the restoration works to restore the original pound / lockside level. The pound below the lock is now at a lower level than before, and hence the lock rise has inceased. There are a couple of shallow locks just below, which is where I assume the difference is taken out.

There is a photo on page 167 of Rochdale Pioneer, the story of the restoration, showing the very white new concrete and the piling in the pound above. Unfortunately the laptop I'm currently using wont let me take a photo of the photo.

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5 hours ago, Jim Riley said:

Curious what relevance the lock depths have for you and a TV programme? 

A lot of the stones in the older locks have stonemasons marks on them. 

Each of the locks featured in the programme will be named and it's rise will appear on screen.   Thought it'd be of interest to viewers. 

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I read somewhere that every lock on the Rochdale was built to the same width and drop so that all gates were interchangeable to make maintenance easier, and this sounds like a really good idea. Not sure if this is true or not but at some stage things have obviously changed. I have read that many of the locks were rebuilt at least once over the lifetime of the canal.

 

...............Dave

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11 hours ago, dmr said:

I read somewhere that every lock on the Rochdale was built to the same width and drop so that all gates were interchangeable to make maintenance easier, and this sounds like a really good idea. Not sure if this is true or not but at some stage things have obviously changed. I have read that many of the locks were rebuilt at least once over the lifetime of the canal.

 

...............Dave

It's obvious from the stonework that many have been rebuilt. Many also have the potential to fit another pair of bottom gates, to save water, though this was never done. I can't see the locks all being built the same, there's a variation in rise. 

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11 hours ago, Jim Riley said:

It's obvious from the stonework that many have been rebuilt. Many also have the potential to fit another pair of bottom gates, to save water, though this was never done. I can't see the locks all being built the same, there's a variation in rise. 

I had assumed the plan was to space out the locks so that they all had the same rise, its a nice idea but I am not convinced it really happened.

 

Those gate recesses are a pain, as are the uneven stones. Rather than use ropes we usually go up locks a bit diagonal and those recesses are just right for getting the gunnels caught.  Currently on the Coventry with tiny little single locks and missing those lovely big Rochdale locks......and the hills.

 

 

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23 hours ago, dmr said:

I read somewhere that every lock on the Rochdale was built to the same width and drop so that all gates were interchangeable to make maintenance easier, and this sounds like a really good idea. Not sure if this is true or not but at some stage things have obviously changed. I have read that many of the locks were rebuilt at least once over the lifetime of the canal.

 

...............Dave

It is only a fairly good idea. However, a proper canal engineer makes the lock fall slightly less as they descend from the summit. This means there is sufficient water brought down by locking to account for evaporation and leakage, as well as for passing through locks. Water usage does account for lock depths and alterations. At Appley Bridge (L&LC), the original deep lock was supplied from the Douglas Navigation at Gathurst. After the canal was completed up to Wigan, this caused great problems with the water supply such that the two shallow locks were built alongside, and only those were used when there was a water shortage. On the Rochdale, the locks on the Yorkshire side were originally built with an extra pair of gates such that a C&HN boat could pass without wasting water. This was found to be difficult to manage, and most of the Lancashire locks only had the usual two pairs of gates.

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6 minutes ago, Pluto said:

It is only a fairly good idea. However, a proper canal engineer makes the lock fall slightly less as they descend from the summit. This means there is sufficient water brought down by locking to account for evaporation and leakage, as well as for passing through locks. Water usage does account for lock depths and alterations. At Appley Bridge (L&LC), the original deep lock was supplied from the Douglas Navigation at Gathurst. After the canal was completed up to Wigan, this caused great problems with the water supply such that the two shallow locks were built alongside, and only those were used when there was a water shortage. On the Rochdale, the locks on the Yorkshire side were originally built with an extra pair of gates such that a C&HN boat could pass without wasting water. This was found to be difficult to manage, and most of the Lancashire locks only had the usual two pairs of gates.

So were some of the "short" gates actually installed and used? I have read that this never happened though I suspect that a lot of history is based on a sort of Chinese whispers rather than "first hand" knowledge. Tuel Lane has two sets of bottom gates and the lock keeper ashed up the longer gates ready for us to go through :).

 

The pound above Appley lock is quite long so I am surprised there were problems, but I still find it hard to visualise just how busy that canal was.

 

................Dave

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

I had assumed the plan was to space out the locks so that they all had the same rise, its a nice idea but I am not convinced it really happened.

 

Those gate recesses are a pain, as are the uneven stones. Rather than use ropes we usually go up locks a bit diagonal and those recesses are just right for getting the gunnels caught.  Currently on the Coventry with tiny little single locks and missing those lovely big Rochdale locks......and the hills.

 

 

Ha! You're hooked. But shush! Don't want it to become Kennet and Roch up here. T'wolves feed Boilermen to their whelps, alive and wriggling. You're OK, you have a wolf of your own. 

  • Haha 1

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2 hours ago, dmr said:

Currently on the Coventry with tiny little single locks and missing those lovely big Rochdale locks......and the hills.

Are you the "Vox Stellarum" that is currently outside the Samuel Barlow?

 

I assumed it was a different one.

Edited by alan_fincher

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38 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Are you the "Vox Stellarum" that is currently outside the Samuel Barlow?

 

I assumed it was a different one.

There is only one Vox Stellarum so that must be us., just been in the Samual Barlow.

 

.............Dave

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