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Apparently there's a race on


magictime

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9 hours ago, magictime said:

This seems to be my week for 'disagreements' with other canal users (which really isn't my idea of what boating should be about).

 

Heading north out of Stockton Heath today, we had to stop and hover for a minute or so to allow the trip boat to wind just ahead of us. All went smoothly, but meanwhile another narrowboat had caught up to within a couple of hundred yards behind us.

 

Off we go again at a normal cruising speed, slowing briefly past a moored boat before speeding up again. It's a fairly winding stretch, and with trees and vegetation on the off side meaning visibility isn't great round bends, so possibly I was going slightly on the slower side - maybe more like 3mph - but nothing out of the ordinary.

 

Meanwhile the boat behind is catching up to us; then he's caught up to us; then his bow is alongside my stern. We can't understand what he's playing at and don't want to wave him past because (1) he's got no need to overtake if travelling at a reasonable speed and (2) as I say, the canal at this point is winding with poor visibility.

 

Before we know it, he's alongside us, on our left, as we round a bend to encounter - who'd have thought? - a boat coming the other way round that same bend. A collision is a real possibility and so (with - I confess - a sarky "good luck with that" to the steerer racing past me) I quickly go into reverse to try and stay out of the way while the other two boats manoeuvre past each other. This sends me drifting into the vegetation, where our new paintwork picks up a few long but (we think) shallow scratches.

 

A couple of miles on we encounter the drag racer back on his home mooring, where he seems to have just tied up. "I'm not sure why you overtook us back there" pipes up Mrs Magictime, against her better judgement. There follows a predictable earful about how we were - literally! - going at one mile an hour, he'd done nothing wrong because we knew he was there (and so presumably should have waved him past - on a blind bend), and anyway "shut up" and "you don't tell me what to do", bla bla bla. You might think that nearly causing a three-boat collision would be some indication that you're doing something wrong, but apparently not.

 

*Sigh* rant over.

 

So all that because another boat overtook you? 

 

I agree with the others who said you should have backed off earlier when you saw the other boat war trying to overtake. Then you wouldn't have needed to slam it into reverse and end up in the bushes.

Edited by blackrose
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8 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well sometimes there is a hurry. Hire boat has to be returned at a specific time. Folk have to be back at home mooring in order to catch a flight home (us). Have to meet some externally applied schedule (eg a booking for Liverpool Link (us)). Lots of other reasons why folk might have to hurry on occasion - or at least not waste time.

 

Pushing past people is bad. But what is worse is people who fail to understand that some folk have a life slightly different from their own. And the most irritating thing on the entire network are those self-righteous people who crow that “Oooooh, you mustn’t hurry on the canals!”. They are just displaying a very selfish attitude and they have no clue that a few decades ago the purpose of the canals was to transport goods asap, and hurrying was top of the agenda.

What does a Hire Boat having to be returned at a specific time have to do with unnecessarily aggressive behaviour on our Canals and Waterways . I suffer this sort of behaviour regularly from these sort of Morons mainly customers of a well known Local Boat Hire Company , why should we all be inconvenienced simply because someone cant plan a cruising schedule and now are anxious to avoid a Penalty charge from the Hire Company at my expense . As regards your last point , years ago it was ok to pollute the Environment  and indulge in behaviour that would nowadays be deemed unacceptable not to mention totally illegal my point being that things move on. The Canals are now a Leisure Resource not an Industrial Highway , they also are no longer maintained to the same level as they were back in those Days and aggressive behaviour on our Canals and Waterways does none of us any favours .

6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Can't help but agree. If someone is boating so aggressively as to attempt to pass the OP then why on earth not just shut the throttle down and get out of your hair? 

 

Sounds to me as though MagicTime was being bloody-minded in obstructing the following and hassling boat past and was therefore the architect of his own paint scratching. 

 

 

Totally agree with that summation Mike , pointless in confronting aggression with aggression 

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1 hour ago, Parahandy said:

What does a Hire Boat having to be returned at a specific time have to do with unnecessarily aggressive behaviour on our Canals and Waterways . I suffer this sort of behaviour regularly from these sort of Morons mainly customers of a well known Local Boat Hire Company , why should we all be inconvenienced simply because someone cant plan a cruising schedule and now are anxious to avoid a Penalty charge from the Hire Company at my expense . As regards your last point , years ago it was ok to pollute the Environment  and indulge in behaviour that would nowadays be deemed unacceptable not to mention totally illegal my point being that things move on. The Canals are now a Leisure Resource not an Industrial Highway , they also are no longer maintained to the same level as they were back in those Days and aggressive behaviour on our Canals and Waterways does none of us any favours .

 

As I said, sometimes there is a need to hurry or at least be expeditious, for reasons not necessarily obvious to others. That doesn’t necessarily mean speeding but it does preclude being stuck behind a boat taking pleasure in going very slowly. The irony is that people who pompously and self-righteously proclaim that you “mustn’t hurry”, often whilst deliberately doing things at half speed just to make the point, are in fact the selfish and arrogant ones if by doing so they hold others up. It’s a kind of control freakery thing.

 

It is of course exactly the same on the roads. In our part of the world (National Park) tourists like to drive along the back roads at 20-30 mph when the speed limit is 60. In part of course because they don’t know the road, but also because they are looking at the nice scenery. And of course one mustn’t hurry when on holiday! When I come up behind them rapidly (having been doing 40-50) most remain oblivious and carry on at 20-30. They know there rights, they can do 25 if they want to. They pass numerous places were pulling in for 5 seconds would allow me to pass and get on with my day. Of course some considerate people do pull in to let me past, but most don’t. It’s a sad reflection on the current selfish and entitled outlook most people have these days.

Edited by nicknorman
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4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well sometimes there is a hurry. Hire boat has to be returned at a specific time. Folk have to be back at home mooring in order to catch a flight home (us). Have to meet some externally applied schedule (eg a booking for Liverpool Link (us)). Lots of other reasons why folk might have to hurry on occasion - or at least not waste time.

 

Pushing past people is bad. But what is worse is people who fail to understand that some folk have a life slightly different from their own. And the most irritating thing on the entire network are those self-righteous people who crow that “Oooooh, you mustn’t hurry on the canals!”. They are just displaying a very selfish attitude and they have no clue that a few decades ago the purpose of the canals was to transport goods asap, and hurrying was top of the agenda.

Oh, is that what the canals were built for? ? But still, you, me, and the boat in question aren't transporting goods asap, hence the comment that 'it wasn't a working flyboat'. A few decades ago could be the 80s and the canals were no longer dominated by working boats in those years. Then and today, if someone's leisure cruise itinerary is so tight that it necessitates overtaking on such a bend as described by the OP then maybe said itinerary is a tad optimistic.

 

Back when the canals truly were working, the boats were crewed by people on them day in day out, where speed was an economic essential and they had the skills to match.  Very few boats would be moored up on the towpath or able to waste time in the day. Now, the boat in front may be 70' of steel or a dinghy, hire boat or coal boat, trip boat, tupperware or kayak, and the experience of the crew can vary from a few hours to a lifetime.  Some want to chug slowly along, out of caution or enjoyment, some to get the miles in, both are valid and the same person may like to do both at different times. Add onto this the lines of moored boats that may restrict the available width in parts, typically in the most congested stretches to start with.

 

Possibly, the diverse types (and speeds) of the canal network's users today should be taken into account when we're planning a route, and it should be accepted that opportunities for passing slower boats will be fewer the narrower, windier, shallower, busier or more overgrown a waterway we're travelling.

 

Passing a slower boat isn't bad in itself, but pushing or passing in an uncoordinated and reckless fashion is. What if it had been another overtaking pair coming round the bend in the opposite direction?  Going slow isn't unfair in itself, but obstructing another boat where it would be safe for them to pass would be. Give and take, a bit of patience and respect and there's room for all paces.

 

For a small GRP cruiser, catching up with narrowboats  is common, without creating a breaking wash and without going faster than walking pace, so it's reasonable to guess most of the steel tubes will be going way below the mythical 4mph mark. The 'speed limit' is written to protect the infrastructure, not an expected  fixed pace for everyone. Boats should have the right to go slower, and similarly, boats going faster but still not too fast have the right to overtake in a safe place and manner. The slower boat isn't being selfish and shouldn't be expected to wave a boat past in an unsuitable spot. The OP didn't seem to be  complaining about passing or speed per se but the nature of the overtaking, where there was little visibility, twisty with lots of vegetation etc. Just seemed a somewhat irresponsible place to attempt the move, and fairly pointless considering how little time the boat in question apparently gained.

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8 hours ago, Slim said:

I've timed myself between distance parkers, used GPS on my phone, several speedo apps on both phone and tablet and have never achieved the 'magical '4 MPH. Sub 3 MPH is far more realistic. My forward speed always seems on a par with other boats. When planning a journey I use an expected speed of 2.5 MPH and am never far out. Remember a GPS speed app gives a point to point speed not an actual speed

Sorry, can you explain that..?   I use a dedicated GPS and if it displays 4mph then I assume my actual speed over ground is 4mph.  

 

8 hours ago, zenataomm said:

The limit has nothing to do with just speed, it's to do with a breaking wash.  The speed quoted by Waterways is merely a guide to those who don't know how to turn their head to read how their boat displaces the water as it passes through.

 

 

 

Exactly.  I passed a moored boat a few weeks ago and the guy watched me from about 100 metres out until I drew level when he sneered "I would have slowed down more than that mate".  Yes, I replied, in your boat you would have to but I'm only displacing about six tons so I can pass moored boats at slightly higher speeds, (gesturing to the mill pond nature of the canal at that point).   Hmmmm, he responded, clearly not convinced.  "Well I'm going slow enough for us to have a discussion about it..."  was my parting shot, and I think sort of sums it up.

 

I repeat, none of us are travelling at breakneck speeds on the canals, you simply can't, and nobody is  getting anywhere fast, but when we are cruising I find boaters on a daily basis who seem to resent the fact that I can travel slightly faster than them. 

 

I have a lot of time to observe the behaviour of crew when I come up behind another boat, and it's remarkable how many never, ever, look behind them.  This echoes Nick's point that it's not about being in a hurry it's simply appreciating the fact that on the canals you need to have consideration for others and their style of boating.  

 

       

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45 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

Oh, is that what the canals were built for? ? But still, you, me, and the boat in question aren't transporting goods asap, hence the comment that 'it wasn't a working flyboat'. A few decades ago could be the 80s and the canals were no longer dominated by working boats in those years. Then and today, if someone's leisure cruise itinerary is so tight that it necessitates overtaking on such a bend as described by the OP then maybe said itinerary is a tad optimistic.

 

Back when the canals truly were working, the boats were crewed by people on them day in day out, where speed was an economic essential and they had the skills to match.  Very few boats would be moored up on the towpath or able to waste time in the day. Now, the boat in front may be 70' of steel or a dinghy, hire boat or coal boat, trip boat, tupperware or kayak, and the experience of the crew can vary from a few hours to a lifetime.  Some want to chug slowly along, out of caution or enjoyment, some to get the miles in, both are valid and the same person may like to do both at different times. Add onto this the lines of moored boats that may restrict the available width in parts, typically in the most congested stretches to start with.

 

Possibly, the diverse types (and speeds) of the canal network's users today should be taken into account when we're planning a route, and it should be accepted that opportunities for passing slower boats will be fewer the narrower, windier, shallower, busier or more overgrown a waterway we're travelling.

 

Passing a slower boat isn't bad in itself, but pushing or passing in an uncoordinated and reckless fashion is. What if it had been another overtaking pair coming round the bend in the opposite direction?  Going slow isn't unfair in itself, but obstructing another boat where it would be safe for them to pass would be. Give and take, a bit of patience and respect and there's room for all paces.

 

For a small GRP cruiser, catching up with narrowboats  is common, without creating a breaking wash and without going faster than walking pace, so it's reasonable to guess most of the steel tubes will be going way below the mythical 4mph mark. The 'speed limit' is written to protect the infrastructure, not an expected  fixed pace for everyone. Boats should have the right to go slower, and similarly, boats going faster but still not too fast have the right to overtake in a safe place and manner. The slower boat isn't being selfish and shouldn't be expected to wave a boat past in an unsuitable spot. The OP didn't seem to be  complaining about passing or speed per se but the nature of the overtaking, where there was little visibility, twisty with lots of vegetation etc. Just seemed a somewhat irresponsible place to attempt the move, and fairly pointless considering how little time the boat in question apparently gained.

I agree with much of that but would point out the following:

 

Regarding a schedule, yes it is a good idea to build in some slack. But what happens if the slack has already been used up, eg mechanical issue or infrastructure issue? Also the amount of slack it is reasonable to have, depends on the duration of the trip. Although retirement has mercifully meant this no longer happens, previously we used to fly down to the boat on a Friday evening and fly back on a Sunday evening. So we had 2 days to go out for a trip. How much of that 2 days should we have as “slack time” to cater for delays. Clearly not much, otherwise there’s no point in going out at all. By contrast at the moment we are put for 2 months, we are heading for Salford Quays (booking required) and Liverpool (booking required) and we have a day to spare.

 

Yes I also agree that pushing past in unsuitable conditions is bad. If we are in the situation of following a slow boat that looks like they’ve not noticed us or not thought of letting us past, we will attract their attention and ask if we may pass. That usually works.

 

But let us also remember that on say the Thames, it is normal to just pass boats (because it is a wide and potentially fast waterway.) On a narrow twisty waterway such as the S Oxford clearly it isn’t.

 

The OP reports being near Stockton Heath so presumably the Bridgewater. Is this a wide and fast waterway such as the Thames? Or a narrow twisty one like the S Oxford? I’d say somewhere midway between the two. So which “rules” apply?

 

Even the narrowest twistyest bits of the Bridgewater are still quite wide and fast and so I don’t think the reported behaviour is as “outrageous” as it would have been on say the S Oxford.

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9 hours ago, Slim said:

I've timed myself between distance parkers, used GPS on my phone, several speedo apps on both phone and tablet and have never achieved the 'magical '4 MPH. Sub 3 MPH is far more realistic. My forward speed always seems on a par with other boats. When planning a journey I use an expected speed of 2.5 MPH and am never far out. Remember a GPS speed app gives a point to point speed not an actual speed

Out of interest, I recently installed a speedo app on my phone and was surprised just how fast 4 mph actually feels. I also work on an average of 2.5 lock miles per hour which is generally not far off the mark. The app I have gives both an "actual" and "average" speed.

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Just now, rgreg said:

Out of interest, I recently installed a speedo app on my phone and was surprised just how fast 4 mph actually feels. I also work on an average of 2.5 lock miles per hour which is generally not far off the mark. The app I have gives both an "actual" and "average" speed.

Yes I think it's worth repeating that, because most folk do not have GPS or use an app, (I suspect because it conflicts with the "get away from it all" nature of canal boating) they think they are doing 4mph when it reality it's probably 3mph or less.  That's why when someone comes up doing nearer to 4mph they react with horror.  

 

Tunnels create the same illusion.  In my experience most folk go much too slowly through tunnels because it feels like you are going much faster than you are.   

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9 hours ago, zenataomm said:

The limit has nothing to do with just speed, it's to do with a breaking wash.  The speed quoted by Waterways is merely a guide to those who don't know how to turn their head to read how their boat displaces the water as it passes through.

 

Beat me to it. Well said.

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10 hours ago, Slim said:

I've timed myself between distance parkers, used GPS on my phone, several speedo apps on both phone and tablet and have never achieved the 'magical '4 MPH. Sub 3 MPH is far more realistic. My forward speed always seems on a par with other boats. When planning a journey I use an expected speed of 2.5 MPH and am never far out. Remember a GPS speed app gives a point to point speed not an actual speed

The Bridgwater is a bit different, I can easily do over 5mph on there where my normal max is probably 3.5 on most canals there are a few I can reach the magic 4 Mph

 

13 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Yes I think it's worth repeating that, because most folk do not have GPS or use an app, (I suspect because it conflicts with the "get away from it all" nature of canal boating) they think they are doing 4mph when it reality it's probably 3mph or less.  That's why when someone comes up doing nearer to 4mph they react with horror.  

 

Tunnels create the same illusion.  In my experience most folk go much too slowly through tunnels because it feels like you are going much faster than you are.   

My GPS dosent work in tunnels 

46 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Sorry, can you explain that..?   I use a dedicated GPS and if it displays 4mph then I assume my actual speed over ground is 4mph.  

 

       

Its points about a meter apart and normally averages over 30 seconds

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10 hours ago, WotEver said:

Eh? Run that by me again...

OK, I'll admit to it, too much happy juice at a BBQ yesterday and when I wrote it I shouldn't have been in control of a keyboard:cheers:

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10 hours ago, zenataomm said:

He's caught you up, and then his bow is alongside your bow, but you don't understand what is happening! Really? Anybody else here not able to understand that situation?

Well all right smartypants, I suppose what I mean is that I was a bit taken aback and wondering why he was doing what he appeared to be doing, in that place at that time.

 

10 hours ago, zenataomm said:

You don't want to wave him past because he has no need to overtake you … Why is that your responsibility to decide?

How long have you been authorised to make executive decisions on behalf of other adults?  You don't have to like others' decisions, yet if you don't allow them to do so (even if it were illegal) then not only are you not being assertive but verging on aggressive.

Hang on a minute. One boater is minding his own business, steering round a bend at his own pace and watching out for his own position in the channel, when another comes up behind and tries to force him to pull over to the right and slow down to let him pass. Which of these adults is trying make executive decisions on behalf of the other?

 

Having said that, with hindsight I do think you're right - I should have been quicker to slow down. Not sure why I didn't, really - I think my instinct was just to stay focused on my own steering and not to be phased by what he was doing.

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2 minutes ago, magictime said:

Having said that, with hindsight I do think you're right - I should have been quicker to slow down. Not sure why I didn't, really - I think my instinct was just to stay focused on my own steering and not to be phased by what he was doing.

I've tried that, somehow it doesn't work

Nowadays if I caught up by another boat, I usually let them by as soon as I can - it puts me in control of the situation. It's the same with bridgeholes and the like.  I know I can control my boat, so I'll stop and call an approaching boat on, even if it is 'my' bridge

 

Richard

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10 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Can't help but agree. If someone is boating so aggressively as to attempt to pass in a bendy bit, then why on earth not just shut the throttle down and get them out of your hair? 

 

Sounds to me as though MagicTime was being bloody-minded in obstructing the following and hassling boat from passing and was therefore the architect of his own paint scratching. 

 

Yes, I should have slowed down. I wasn't obstructing him though - not sure where you got that from.

7 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

So all that because another boat overtook you? 

 

I agree with the others who said you should have backed off earlier when you saw the other boat war trying to overtake. Then you wouldn't have needed to slam it into reverse and end up in the bushes.

As above, yes of course with hindsight I should have slowed down.

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3 minutes ago, magictime said:

 Which of these adults is trying make executive decisions on behalf of the other?

 

This is the exact point. The guy overtaking you took an executive decision that he would overtake and you would have to slow/pull in. Which is bad.

 

But equally you took an executive decision that you would go at 3mph on a wide and deep canal, abnormally slow, and anybody behind would have to do the same - thus you made an executive decision on behalf of the guy behind. Which is equally bad.

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7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But equally you took an executive decision that you would go at 3mph on a wide and deep canal, abnormally slow, and anybody behind would have to do the same - thus you made an executive decision on behalf of the guy behind. Which is equally bad.

I don't know if I was doing 3mph or not; as has been pointed out, boaters aren't necessarily great at estimating their speed. But I'm certain I wasn't going 'abnormally slow'. I was going basically just below 'breaking wash' speed, the same speed that generally means I keep pace with other boats and the same speed that generally gets me where I'm going about as quickly as CanalPlan says it should. Yes I might have gone  bit faster on a straighter section of a wide, deep canal, but going that speed round tight bends doesn't really work in my experience.

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48 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

I’m always amused by the growing number of boaters who use their tacho as a speedometer. “I cruise at 2,500 rpm and pass moored boats at 1,800..”

Irrespective  of the canal depth/width etc. 

I take it thats not a narrowboat with a diesel engine? If I were using those revs I would be on the plane at 1800 revs, I pass moored boats at about 700 revs in my van engined boat.

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I pass no judgement on either party since I wasn't there to witness the event.
I have had similar experiences on this canal over the years, and my way of dealing with it is to pull over ASAP and let them past. On a couple of occasions they have passed at sufficient speed to drag our bow across and strike their boat, which amuses me no end.
Let them past and get on with your life. As another poster's aunty rightly said: "You are a long time dead."

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11 minutes ago, catweasel said:

I have had similar experiences on this canal over the years, and my way of dealing with it is to pull over ASAP and let them past. On a couple of occasions they have passed at sufficient speed to drag our bow across and strike their boat, which amuses me no end.."

That's Mr Bernoulli causing trouble again, curse him

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