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So did we 'steal' this lock?


magictime

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17 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

If it was a work boat then time is important; nonetheless if you were literally in the pound or ascending the lock below then the balance would still be in favour of leaving the lock for you. CRT employees (assuming they were) should be encouraged to set a good example.

 

JP

I was still coming up in the lock as the first C&RT arrived. The volly who was ahead of me setting locks was at the top lock as they turned it. 

So given that (genuinely) working boats have presidence would a boat mover have the same right way of way ?

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1 minute ago, PaulJ said:

I was still coming up in the lock as the first C&RT arrived. The volly who was ahead of me setting locks was at the top lock as they turned it. 

So given that (genuinely) working boats have presidence would a boat mover have the same right way of way ?

Why do you think working boats have priority?

 

My commercial licence very clearly states that I don't have any precedence at locks or visitor moorings, despite what some boats will tell you! 

 

I believe the commercial boats used to have right of way, but that hasn't been the case for a long time.

 

It is of course courteous to wave a trip boat through if you are just bimbling along, but they only have the right to ask.

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5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Why do you think working boats have priority?

 

My commercial licence very clearly states that I don't have any precedence at locks or visitor moorings, despite what some boats will tell you! 

 

I believe the commercial boats used to have right of way, but that hasn't been the case for a long time.

 

It is of course courteous to wave a trip boat through if you are just bimbling along, but they only have the right to 

I dont personally think any boat does but plenty seem to think different.

Interesting to hear straight from the horses mouth as it were though-thanks.

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21 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

I was still coming up in the lock as the first C&RT arrived. The volly who was ahead of me setting locks was at the top lock as they turned it. 

So given that (genuinely) working boats have presidence would a boat mover have the same right way of way ?

As TheBiscuits says no one has precedence it’s just sensible as a leisure boater that you don’t get in the way of folk who are at work. How you’d know someone was a paid boat mover I don’t know.

 

Sounds like the CRT staff and volunteers were out of order in your example. They turned a lock directly against a boater without permission and seemingly without obvious reason to need to do so. There are circumstances when turning the lock could be justified but to do it without agreement is poor behaviour. How do CRT expect boaters to take any notice of those annoying signs they put on balance beams telling us how to conserve water if their own staff can’t abide by those principles?

 

JP

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36 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The boat coming the other way was the far side of another lock. How does your rule fit in with this?  How about a boat two locks away? 

Some years ago - a group of us (four adult males) were on a hire boat. We approached a lock that was against us. as we disembarked on the lock landing a gentleman approached from the other direction, on a bicycle, with a windless. Naturally, we left the lock in his favour.

 

We had a chat, still no sign of his boat, asked him polity where they were...

 

He had a brief chat on his mobile, "just entering lock 23" he said (we were at lock 27).

 

We turned the lock. He wasn't impressed

 

 

Sorry - setting locks and claiming possession 4-5 locks ahead of the one you are in doesn't work. At least for me.

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One up One down is a good "rule" when locking, especially so on short pounds. So, if there was a boat in the pound ahead of the op, traveling in the same direction, then it would have been much better to wait, otherwise the op was likely ok to turn the lock. As the lock needed turning either there was a boat ahead, or the hire company had pre-set the lock too soon.

 

...............Dave

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3 minutes ago, dmr said:

One up One down is a good "rule" when locking, especially so on short pounds. So, if there was a boat in the pound ahead of the op, traveling in the same direction, then it would have been much better to wait, otherwise the op was likely ok to turn the lock. As the lock needed turning either there was a boat ahead, or the hire company had pre-set the lock too soon.

 

...............Dave

It says in the OP that they were following another boat that by the description given was in the pound below ready to take the bottom lock when vacated by the hire boat. So there was little if anything to be gained by turning the lock anyway.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg
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There is so much more than a boat coming the other way in this equation - if it were simple flight of a few locks, nicely spaced, and only one boat each way, easy, but...

 

Middlewich are blimmin tight, and if there are a lot of boats going one way and only one the other then at some point that lock full will get saved (or wasted) - say 3 boats down and 1 up, the lock needs filling three times, on one of them there will be a boat in it. 

 

Add to that, with the really short pounds, if two boats are in the pound, both going down, then a lock full of water has gone over the bywash... 

 

Rules were made for the guidance of the wise and the observance of fools... 

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16 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

Some years ago - a group of us (four adult males) were on a hire boat. We approached a lock that was against us. as we disembarked on the lock landing a gentleman approached from the other direction, on a bicycle, with a windless. Naturally, we left the lock in his favour.

 

We had a chat, still no sign of his boat, asked him polity where they were...

 

He had a brief chat on his mobile, "just entering lock 23" he said (we were at lock 27).

 

We turned the lock. He wasn't impressed

 

 

Sorry - setting locks and claiming possession 4-5 locks ahead of the one you are in doesn't work. At least for me.

 

That would have been Hider Sam, presumably!!!

 

:giggles:

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That would have been Hider Sam, presumably!!!

 

:giggles:

 

 

 

No, Sam is dad, won't post one here again, at least not often as some bastard on the forum keeps trying to break his password as I explained before. I'm hiding from a completely different set of idiots.

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2 minutes ago, hider said:

No, Sam is dad, won't post one here again, at least not often as some bastard on the forum keeps trying to break his password as I explained before. I'm hiding from a completely different set of idiots.

 

Why does it matter a toss to him if someone is trying to crack his password? They won't manage it, assuming he hasn't used 12345 as his password.  IF he is your dad of course, which seems unlikely. 

 

 

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Technically I guess you did "steal" the middle lock but given the situation with a boat behind you you faced the possible situation of boat coming up the lock, you in the 90 degree pound and a boat in the top lock which would have led to a crowded pound, plus a lock full of water being lost anyway if the boat emptied the top lock before the middle one was full.

 

Going down the lock meant you passed the boat coming up in the straight pound rather than having 3 in the next pound.

 

I suspect I would have done the same as you.

 

The behaviour of the Andersen Boats staff does seem extremely off

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Getting back on topic.

Some of the replies on here are talking about the flight of three locks at Middlewich, and the remainder are chortling on about the two locks at the Wardle junction.

 

I suspect if I were in the OP's shoes I'd have done the same, that said it doesn't mean my actions would have been beyond reproach. However, there are many "What Ifs" that could have also played a part here.

What if …..

* ….. the boat behind had decided (not surprisingly) to follow the OP down, after all where does this business of don't turn a lock there might be a boat coming stop?  There'd have been two of you sitting and staring at an unused lock.  

* ….. the hire boat staff had properly been instructing the new hirers by supervising them as they worked the lock (it sounds as if they were merely working them through and explaining). How many more boats would have joined the wait and how many of them would have decided to muck in and get everybody through expediently, instead of twiddling thumbs and whistling nonchalantly?  

* …… the Anderson staff had experienced a long and trifficult day, were behind in getting everyone out and were under pressure?  I don't know them, but guess they are of the human persuasion.

* ….. this had been 1985 and I had been there with my pair.  This tiny fracas is nothing to what I'd have created by insisting on "Butty'ing through"

 

We are living in what at times proves itself to be petty times.  We meet more and more people every year who are aggressive and seem to need to find issues in everything.

 

I don't think you necessarily stole any lock, I think the bigger crime is uncouth behaviour of the hire boat staff whom were bullying with an assumption that suited them.

 

screenshot_2018-11-26-all-sizes-storm-in-a-teacup-flickr-photo-sharing.jpg.1c71d1fb39194a13793e862eff15f4b5.jpg

The fearless buccaneers of the SS White With Two.

Ref: - creativity, Dr Mark Brophy by inkCloudNovember 26, 2018

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Hi 

What is it with the locks at Middlewich they seem to infect people in a strange way and make them behave irrationally ?

A true story

we were in the 3rd lock waiting to come up, and a boat was in the 4th lock coming down. OH said "walk up and tell them I will wait in the lock and then pass them in the pound " (this is our usual procedure ) I relay this message to the boat in the lock and get an an acknowledgement., boat leaves lock and I wait for OH ,At this moment a woman appears from the next boat waiting to go down and tries  to close the gates and turn the lock " Excuse me " I say "what are you doing " she replies "We are travelling with that boat and need to stay together so this is MY lock ! " me (trying to be polite) *But it makes  no difference if we are in the lock while you re-fill it  " Her "NO NO IT IS MY LOCK" Me (loosing patience) "it makes NO difference to you if we come in " Her "IT'S MY LOCK !"

I resolved the problem by sitting on the gate so she couldn't close it OH came in I filled the lock and then off we went with her muttering the whole time.

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Phew! Lots of interesting and balanced replies there, and a discussion worth having by the sounds of it. The one reply I'm going to have to take issue with is this one..

 

6 hours ago, Paul&Sam said:

I think you should have waited. 

 

The bit I think missed here is the hire staff probably had just finished explaining to their guests how locks work and lock etiquette and right of way. 

 

You then go and do the exact opposite of what you acknowledged was protocol. 

 

You can't have it both ways, hire boaters aren't going to observe etiquette on locks if it isn't returned and their very first lock sequence during their training another boater throws it out the window. You've demonstrated to them it is optional so cest la vie when it occurs in reverse and someone turns a lock in their favour against you when it was already set. 

 

Rudeness can't be excused from the hire boat staff but, if they are trying to verbalise to you your error in order to fix the perception of their guests then I can see where this gets mis construed. 

 

They may well have thought they was helping you with your lock wheeling. 

 

The interaction is hard to call without being there and judging tone etc, the sequence of the locks by your account though seems clearly in their favour. 

 

OK, fair enough, you think I should have waited (a majority but not unanimous view, I think). But I never acknowledged that 'protocol' was in the other boat's favour - I honestly thought that, if anything, protocol suggested that the lock was 'ours' because there was no boat actually in the pound below and able to use it. I also thought protocol suggested that we shouldn't hold up boats behind us by assuming on their behalf that they were happy to wait. And I figured we had some responsibility to consider the implications for congestion if we waited where we were, another boat came down to join us, and then the boat coming the other way had to get past both of us in that very short, bendy pound.

 

And I'm not trying to have it both ways - I can say in all honesty that if the roles had been reversed, I wouldn't have expected the other party to wait for us to bring our boat up two locks. 

 

Genuine question  (for you and anyone else): as a rule of thumb, ignoring the point about congestion at the very tight Middlewich locks, how many locks below you on a flight would a boat have to be before you didn't feel obliged to wait for them, in this scenario? I mean, say you were coming down the Audlem flight and saw a boat coming the other way six five locks down - would you wait?

 

Not trying to go on the defensive here, just honestly wanting to get as clear as I can be on the etiquette. We generally try to go out of our way to be considerate boaters, but on this point I still feel I'm a bit woolly on others' expectations/assumptions.

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36 minutes ago, magictime said:

 

Genuine question  (for you and anyone else): as a rule of thumb, ignoring the point about congestion at the very tight Middlewich locks, how many locks below you on a flight would a boat have to be before you didn't feel obliged to wait for them, in this scenario? I mean, say you were coming down the Audlem flight and saw a boat coming the other way six five locks down - would you wait?

 

Presumably you mean if the locks were set in favour of the oncoming boat.  

 

A lot depends on what other traffic there is.  If there is a huge queue behind you I think you have to crack on until you meet the oncoming boat, but I can recall situations where we have waited quite a while for a boat coming up a flight and in fact have gone to help, if the flight has been very quiet.  

 

Just the other week we came out of the bottom lock at Hack Green on a day when everyone seemed to be going North.  There was a substantial queue behind but an oncoming boat could be seen in the far distance heading towards the empty lock.  The crew on the lock sat down and decided to wait for the boat to take the empty lock, which must have taken a good 15 minutes.  Had we still been in the queue that would have annoyed me, but had there not been a queue at all, I too would have waited for the boat.       

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My rule of thumb is if I think I can turn the lock and get through it and out of the way before the other boat arrives to enter it, then I'll turn it. If not, then I'll wait. 

 

Water-saving considerations aside, that is.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Presumably you mean if the locks were set in favour of the oncoming boat.  

 

A lot depends on what other traffic there is.  If there is a huge queue behind you I think you have to crack on until you meet the oncoming boat, but I can recall situations where we have waited quite a while for a boat coming up a flight and in fact have gone to help, if the flight has been very quiet.  

  

We've done that on Audlem on more than one occasion.

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Water on that flight is usually not an issue. On the busy 4 counties, any boat dropping down Kings lock, turning to go up Wardle lock or visa versa fills the pound above the Middlewich 3. 

When we went down in Thursday, there was plenty of water coming over all the spillways. 

Also we had decent vlockies on all the locks so it ran v smoothly. 

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2 hours ago, magictime said:

OK, fair enough, you think I should have waited (a majority but not unanimous view, I think). But I never acknowledged that 'protocol' was in the other boat's favour - I honestly thought that, if anything, protocol suggested that the lock was 'ours' because there was no boat actually in the pound below and able to use it. I also thought protocol suggested that we shouldn't hold up boats behind us by assuming on their behalf that they were happy to wait. And I figured we had some responsibility to consider the implications for congestion if we waited where we were, another boat came down to join us, and then the boat coming the other way had to get past both of us in that very short, bendy pound....

 

2 hours ago, magictime said:

Genuine question  (for you and anyone else): as a rule of thumb, ignoring the point about congestion at the very tight Middlewich locks, how many locks below you on a flight would a boat have to be before you didn't feel obliged to wait for them, in this scenario? I mean, say you were coming down the Audlem flight and saw a boat coming the other way six five locks down - would you wait?

 

I generally work upon if you can see another boat coming and it is in their favour. Normally you can see only 1 or 2 locks ahead unless they are very close, if the boat is coming out the next lock and its 50 yards to your lock I would have waited.

 

Seems the consensus in the thread was that the protocol was such which I may have got mixed up on being your comment, apologies.

 

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17 minutes ago, Paul&Sam said:

 

I generally work upon if you can see another boat coming and it is in their favour. Normally you can see only 1 or 2 locks ahead unless they are very close, if the boat is coming out the next lock and its 50 yards to your lock I would have waited.

 

Seems the consensus in the thread was that the protocol was such which I may have got mixed up on being your comment, apologies.

 

No problem. What a pleasure to have a civilised difference of opinion! I still think we might do the same thing again in the same particular circumstances (boat behind, awkward short pound etc.), but in general I think we'll be a bit more conscious of waiting where we can even if an oncoming boat is a couple of locks away.

 

Oh, the other response my wife had to your point about Andersen trying to teach 'boating etiquette' and us undermining the lesson: if they were that concerned about what they were teaching, surely one thing they absolutely shouldn't have done was start raising paddles without checking with the streerer (me) that the boat was safely in and clear of the cill. That, after all, is a safety issue and not just a question of etiquette (or even water conservation).

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7 hours ago, PaulJ said:

So given that (genuinely) working boats have presidence would a boat mover have the same right way of way ?

No they don't , believe it if you wish but its bo110x

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7 hours ago, PaulJ said:

I was still coming up in the lock as the first C&RT arrived. The volly who was ahead of me setting locks was at the top lock as they turned it. 

So given that (genuinely) working boats have presidence would a boat mover have the same right way of way ?

No. They are indistinguishable from leisure boaters and liveaboards. What do you want, a different colour "entitlement sticker" on every boat?

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