So did we 'steal' this lock?

[magictime]

Help me out here...

 

We followed a boat down the top lock of the Middlewich Three today, leaving another boat behind us presumably waiting to come down after us. Pulled into the pound below to find the boat ahead of us just pulling out of the middle lock, as you'd expect. At the same time there was also a boat just pulling into the empty bottom lock from below, ready to come up.

 

Now obviously we could have saved a lock's worth of water by waiting for that boat to come up the bottom lock, pull in to the empty middle lock, and come up that too. But we figured that (a) we had time to fill the middle lock and get down it before they'd be ready to come in anyway, (b) it wasn't really for us to decide that any boats behind us should wait that extra 10 or 15 minutes, (c) there was a risk of the pound we were in (very short and on a very tight bend) getting quite congested if another boat came down into it while the other boat was coming up, (d) there was no particular issue with water levels, and, yes, (e) - at the end of the day, wasn't it our lock, since there was no boat actually in the pound below ready to come up? 

 

Well, the people in charge of that boat - who were the Andersen Boats staff, showing hire boaters through their first locks - certainly didn't think so. I missed most of it being on the back deck, but they gave Mrs Magictime a right earful about 'stealing their lock'; and when I pulled into 'their' lock to descend, the guy whacked the first paddle up without looking for any indication from me that I was safely in, then insisted on barging in front of Mrs Magictime and whacking the other paddle up too. Another staff member then made some patronising remark about how 'if we knew the waterways' we'd know we should have waited for them to save water.

 

This all just seems a bit ridiculous though - I mean, just how far below you on a flight can another boat be and still claim the lock you're at is 'theirs' by right just because it's in their favour, regardless of other considerations about time, congestion etc? (They certainly thought the top lock was 'theirs' too, because they said so.)

 

Right or wrong, their attitude just stank, muscling in and working the lock for us etc., it just felt like they thought they owned the whole flight.

Edited July 6, 2019 by magictime

[Neil2]

TBH I think on balance we would have waited, especially if Andersens had sent crew ahead, but this sort of thing is a 50/50 call.  As you say there's something to be said for keeping things moving with that middle pound being a bit tight for space.  It's certainly not worth getting worked up about, and even if the hire boat staff felt they were in the right that's a pretty shabby way to behave in front of a novice crew under instruction.  

 

I'm surprised, as we keep our boat on the Middlewich branch and have had nothing but positive feedback from Andersen hirers we have met.     

[Captain Pegg]

Broadly, I’d side with the Andersen Boats folk although it doesn’t excuse acting in the manner you describe.

 

Ideally when there is traffic in both directions it’s one each way in turn and there was opportunity to do that. All you presumably achieved was to put yourself in a position where you had to wait for the boat in front to descend the bottom lock?   

 

Just because the levels seem OK in one flight of locks at one point in time doesn’t mean the whole water supply issue for that canal is fine even at that particular moment let alone long term.

 

JP

[dmr]

I can't give a definitive answer, but its very sad if Anderson were rude, they keep their boats well and always look to be a good friendly company.

Its a tricky lock flight, short pounds drop a lot in level making it difficult for deeper boats, and the bend can be quite tricky, especially if inexperienced boats get in the way. We reckon on about half of passages through that flight we witness some anger and aggression from other boaters and we just shrug it off. The best was a boat who waited about 50 feet directly above the lock not leaving space for us to get our 70 feet out of the lock and became increasingly aggressive as we tried to explain that he really had to reverse back a bit "Ive been boating for 20 years and never seen a boat unable to get out of this lock before" was his stance. Must confess I did loose it a bit and reply "you've been boating for twenty years and not even learned the basics ?" 

 

Go and have a pint in the Kings Lock.

 

...............Dave

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

The best was a boat who waited about 50 feet directly above the lock not leaving space for us to get our 70 feet out of the lock and became increasingly aggressive as we tried to explain that he really had to reverse back a bit "Ive been boating for 20 years and never seen a boat unable to get out of this lock before" was his stance.

It's quite startling how inaccurate my boathandling becomes under such circumstances. 

 

Usually I can put the boat exactly where I want it regardless of wind or water, but obnoxious gits seem to make it awfully difficult to steer ... maybe it's performance pressure!

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

We reckon on about half of passages through that flight we witness some anger and aggression from other boaters and we just shrug it off.

 

My experience too. I've never seen so many angry, short-tempered boaters shouting and stropping about in my life as when I did those locks a few years back. Honestly, we wondered why most of the boaters were there as they seemed to be having such a ghastly time. 

 

 

 

[David Mack]

36 minutes ago, magictime said:

 But we figured that (a) we had time to fill the middle lock and get down it before they'd be ready to come in anyway,

 

Did you get through the lock before they were ready to come in? And did they have crew on the lockside to claim it as 'their' lock? If the answers are yes and no, then it wasn't 'their' lock, and they weren't delayed. So whats the problem?

[MtB]

 

 

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

It's quite startling how inaccurate my boathandling becomes under such circumstances. 

 

Usually I can put the boat exactly where I want it regardless of wind or water, but obnoxious gits seem to make it awfully difficult to steer ... maybe it's performance pressure!

 

 

Lol I do just the same. And I blame the unpredictable gusts of wind if criticised for my shyte boating skills  

[TheBiscuits]

44 minutes ago, magictime said:

Help me out here...

Okay, I'll bite.

 

From your OP I take it that there were three boats going down and one coming up, and the up boat was in the bottom lock as you approached the empty middle lock, with another boat waiting in the pound between bottom and middle locks.  I'd call that as the up boat has right of way on the middle lock

 

From your description, I think you were in the wrong from an etiquette perspective. 

 

If the bywash was running then it didn't matter from a water perspective, but I dont think you saved much time and you caused aggro by doing do.

 

If the Andersen lot were rude and took control of your lock, that was wrong too, but we all know that two wrongs don't make a right!

 

Would it have been okay if they had done it to you or not?  What do you think the vollies would have done if the locks were manned when you passed through?

[Paul&Sam]

7 hours ago, magictime said:

Help me out here...

I think you should have waited. 

 

The bit I think missed here is the hire staff probably had just finished explaining to their guests how locks work and lock etiquette and right of way. 

 

You then go and do the exact opposite of what you acknowledged was protocol. 

 

You can't have it both ways, hire boaters aren't going to observe etiquette on locks if it isn't returned and their very first lock sequence during their training another boater throws it out the window. You've demonstrated to them it is optional so cest la vie when it occurs in reverse and someone turns a lock in their favour against you when it was already set. 

 

Rudeness can't be excused from the hire boat staff but, if they are trying to verbalise to you your error in order to fix the perception of their guests then I can see where this gets mis construed. 

 

They may well have thought they was helping you with your lock wheeling. 

 

The interaction is hard to call without being there and judging tone etc, the sequence of the locks by your account though seems clearly in their favour. 

[Mike on the Wey]

In terms of personal effort and faff, I am a minimalist. In a flight I would look forward one or two locks to see what is happening, and in the circumstances you describe I would have left the lock ready for the ascending boat. Time for a quick drink and a breather. It is difficult to judge what happened from a distance, and I am certainly not saying that my approach is the only way. 

[Neil2]

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

My experience too. I've never seen so many angry, short-tempered boaters shouting and stropping about in my life as when I did those locks a few years back. Honestly, we wondered why most of the boaters were there as they seemed to be having such a ghastly time. 

 

 

 

It's a perfect storm, - a busy junction, hire boats, three narrow locks close together with a really tight turn into the middle one. 

 

Then all you need is a group of boats travelling in convoy...

[nicknorman]

Had this same conundrum myself, obviously. Sometimes I have waited. Sometimes I’ve turned the lock. Usually I’ve regretted doing the latter and felt a bit guilty, felt the need to apologise.

 

if you think about it, boat in bottom lock had to fill the lock and come out. You had to fill the lock, go in, drain it and come out, which is bound to take longer so you are bound to hold them up.

 

None of which of course excuses bad behaviour from the Andersen’s staff, who set a very bad example. You could always give them feedback on Tripadvisor.

[linnit]

I have also done that and then felt guilty!!..the opposing boatman gave me the finger when i apologised and his lady gave me a death stare!!...I will wait if i experience it again?

[Arthur Marshall]

Middlewich is one of the few bad tempered junctions, where it's very difficult to judge who's going where and who has priority at any lock. So everyone tends to be on edge a bit and it's easy to get it wrong in someone's eyes. In the OPs case I think I'd have waited, but I'm not sure as it's also important there to keep the queue moving. Either way, no excuse for attiitude from the boat mob, if they were upset because they thought you'd countered their instructions to their hirer they just should have used you as an example of bad boating practice! 

[rgreg]

When the volockies are on duty in Middlewich they do an excellent job coordinating movements using 2-way radios.

[Thorfast]

.......and I thought boating was a leisure activity.

If there are several boats coming down and I'm coming up, in those circumstances I wouldnt mind if you 'turned' the lock. 

It gets really awkward at those lockes when two boats are in the pound with the sharp bend, so the quicker youare through the three locks the better.waiting at locks there can jam up the system.

.....but then, I consider boating a leisure activity!!

[rgreg]

..and then there's further confusion and tension at Wardle lock junction! 

[Captain Pegg]

13 minutes ago, Thorfast said:

.......and I thought boating was a leisure activity.

If there are several boats coming down and I'm coming up, in those circumstances I wouldnt mind if you 'turned' the lock. 

It gets really awkward at those lockes when two boats are in the pound with the sharp bend, so the quicker youare through the three locks the better.waiting at locks there can jam up the system.

.....but then, I consider boating a leisure activity!!

The fact that boating is (mostly) a leisure activity is why the conversation of water is more important than anybody’s time and in my opinion the primary reason why magictime should have waited.

 

JP

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

the conversation of water

 

Yes this is what we should be discussing here. 

 

[hider]

If you turned a lock that was set for the boat coming in the opposite direction, you stole the lock. End of.

Wardle canal junction is confusing if the boat waiting to come up is hiding around the corner on the T&M instead of being on the lock mooring immediately below Wardle lock.

May be simpler now that the water point is not there.

[PaulJ]

5 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

The fact that boating is (mostly) a leisure activity is why the conversation of water is more important than anybody’s time and in my opinion the primary reason why magictime should have waited.

 

JP

Thats an interesting point-I was coming up the Bosely flight few days ago and at the top lock (which a C&RT boat coming down had just left set for me ) the gates suddenley shut and another C&RT boat turned the lock on me! 

[Captain Pegg]

8 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

Thats an interesting point-I was coming up the Bosely flight few days ago and at the top lock (which a C&RT boat coming down had just left set for me ) the gates suddenley shut and another C&RT boat turned the lock on me! 

If it was a work boat then time is important; nonetheless if you were literally in the pound or ascending the lock below then the balance would still be in favour of leaving the lock for you. CRT employees (assuming they were) should be encouraged to set a good example.

 

JP

[MtB]

26 minutes ago, hider said:

If you turned a lock that was set for the boat coming in the opposite direction, you stole the lock. End of.

 

Clearly not true.

 

The boat coming the other way was the far side of another lock. How does your rule fit in with this?  How about a boat two locks away? 

 

 

[AndrewIC]

2 hours ago, Neil2 said:

with a really tight turn into the middle one. 

There is a handy bywash outlet just below the top lock which pushes the bow round nicely as you come out of the top (or conversely, as you turn into the top going up), provided you don’t come out of the lock like a bat out of the proverbial. I’ve always assumed its positioning was deliberate!

 

IMHO the least messy way to work this flight is to have boats either crossing in the very short pounds, or ascending/descending the locks. In the scenario described, you’re still not going to get through the bottom lock until the Andersen boat has come up, plus now you’re going to have to refill the bottom lock after the boat in front of you has gone down, and you get to spend a lock cycle loitering in a small, shallow, usually windy pound with bywashes which start and stop unexpectedly.

 

I’ve seen some crazy situations there with 2 or even 3 boats trying to wait in a short pound, and in a roughly similar scenario (me going down the middle lock, another boat going down the bottom lock, queue waiting to come up) I’ve been known to sit in the bottom of the empty middle lock waiting for the next boat to come up the bottom lock, then cross in the pound, to prevent just that kind of build up. Much to the ire of the boat behind, who couldn’t understand that there was no way he was going to get down the flight any faster overall.