Carl.b Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 Hi all, new to the forum, but been reading your advice on here for years... So now I have a problem I can't find an answer to so thought best to join up, introduce myself and ask the question ? so I'm Carl have a 70ft narrowboat based in Shardlow.. That's the boring bit lol.. Next bit I have a Isuzu marine 38hp with a prm 160d2 gearbox. Currently we are 80% of the way around the 4 counties ring, I started getting issues with my gearbox a week or so ago, in forward gear no issues at all. When the boat is cold or in the morning like not long after setting off all is well, then suddenly a hire boat appears on the wrong side of the canal and I go for reverse to stop myself and nothing happens... I can see wash so the prop is turning so its like the gear has not engaged fully. Then I give it more power and poof... In gear and I stop... In other occasions it just revs... Then clunk in it goes... So I have got used to the neutral then reverse then wait for the clunk then go full reverse... This is problematic when going into locks or on blind bends as you may imagine.... I have checked everywhere, even called midland swindlers and no one is telling me what the issue could be, or how to diagnose the issue. I am quite handy in that I will try fix anything to a point so would like to know if I can sort it myself! Any advice would be appreciated P. S cables and levers all good. Many thanks Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess-- Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 if the 160 is a hydraulic box the first thing to check is oil level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 Very, very first thing to check is the oil level Welcome to the form, Carl Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jess-- said: if the 160 is a hydraulic box the first thing to check is oil level And if it is low oil level then don't feel an idiot. Many thousands have been caught by that before you. The idiot would be the one who did not ask. Welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl.b Posted July 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 Hi guys, yeah checked the oil... At the point of replacing it tomorrow incase the oil that's in it is knackered. Carl Forgot to mention it is a hydraulic box yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 Unfortunately for you, if it isn't the oil level, it's probably wear in the gearbox Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hider Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 Check the travel on the gearbox lever is correct when you engage gear with the hand control, it may not be getting full travel due to wear, bad adjustment or a gear cable that is about to snap. If you disconnect the cable at the gearbox, and move hand lever to reverse. move gear lever on the box to the reverse position, the cable should fit straight in without moving either lever. If the box is warn, a repair with new clutch is not expensive but consider a new PRM 280 current model, its a straight drop in swap and I bought one last year for less than £1400 delivered. The 160 has fibre clutch plates, later models, 260 and 280 have bronze clutches, all will interchange. If there is water in a 160 box it ruins the clutches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl.b Posted July 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 44 minutes ago, hider said: Check the travel on the gearbox lever is correct when you engage gear with the hand control, it may not be getting full travel due to wear, bad adjustment or a gear cable that is about to snap. If you disconnect the cable at the gearbox, and move hand lever to reverse. move gear lever on the box to the reverse position, the cable should fit straight in without moving either lever. If the box is warn, a repair with new clutch is not expensive but consider a new PRM 280 current model, its a straight drop in swap and I bought one last year for less than £1400 delivered. The 160 has fibre clutch plates, later models, 260 and 280 have bronze clutches, all will interchange. If there is water in a 160 box it ruins the clutches. Hi hider, thanks for the reply, so I have thought about the travel before I have adjusted the lever to almost as far on the cable as I can (engine side only) , there is still a bit more travel remaining. Oddly if I put it in reverse and watch the cable it does move slightly more when I give it some revs... We have a gearbox mechanic in trent lock at long Eaton gladly, I contacted him today he will completely rebuild my box for £360... But he advised a oil change as I don't know what's in it... Best case I sort it with a oil change... Worse case the case continues ?? 1 hour ago, RLWP said: Unfortunately for you, if it isn't the oil level, it's probably wear in the gearbox Richard I'm told these boxes are bomb proof, most of the issues are caused by worn seals or oil pump, or clutch or clutches.. ? There may still be hope fingers crossed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, Carl.b said: 'm told these boxes are bomb proof, most of the issues are caused by worn seals or oil pump, or clutch or clutches.. ? There may still be hope fingers crossed? As 'hider' says, the early boxes have steel clutch plates with fibre linings stuck on. They wear out and fall off. That's rather more likely on the forward clutch than reverse, it still happens The other thing that happens is the clutch plates rattle on the drive spline and wear a little groove. This stops the plates sliding freely , they can catch and stop the clutch engaging properly Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl.b Posted July 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 2 hours ago, RLWP said: Unfortunately for you, if it isn't the oil level, it's probably wear in the gearbox Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl.b Posted July 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 2 hours ago, RLWP said: Unfortunately for you, if it isn't the oil level, it's probably wear in the gearbox Richard No idea why that posted your reply.... My phone is being odd.. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, Carl.b said: No idea why that posted your reply.... My phone is being odd.. Lol Have you checked its oil level ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: Have you checked its oil level ? Ask these guys, they will advise on the correct oil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, RLWP said: Ask these guys, they will advise on the correct oil http://antiquetelephones.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d11_convertedwhileyouwait.html Is this the right link? @cuthound may be interested. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 Just now, Ray T said: Is this the right link? Quote Remove the dial, clean the contacts, oil the movement and set it running at the correct speed. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) Just now, RLWP said: Richard Correct speed - 10 pps, tweek the governor with a pair of 81's, took many apart in my apprenticeship. Edited July 4, 2019 by Ray T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paringa Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 (edited) I think hider was asking you to manually put the lever forward and back with the cable off and see if it functions normally... If you have my apologies, but it sounded like you adjusted the cable while still connected which wasn't what he advised. Edited July 4, 2019 by Paringa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmr Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Carl.b said: Hi hider, thanks for the reply, so I have thought about the travel before I have adjusted the lever to almost as far on the cable as I can (engine side only) , there is still a bit more travel remaining. Oddly if I put it in reverse and watch the cable it does move slightly more when I give it some revs... We have a gearbox mechanic in trent lock at long Eaton gladly, I contacted him today he will completely rebuild my box for £360... But he advised a oil change as I don't know what's in it... Best case I sort it with a oil change... Worse case the case continues ?? I'm told these boxes are bomb proof, most of the issues are caused by worn seals or oil pump, or clutch or clutches.. ? There may still be hope fingers crossed? £360 is a good price for a gearbox rebuild, but I suspect this is the labour only and any parts that are required will be extra. I paid a little more than this to have my 260 stripped, inspected, and put back together with new seals but no new clutches or bearings. Do you know how many hours your gearbox has done? ................Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl.b Posted July 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, dmr said: £360 is a good price for a gearbox rebuild, but I suspect this is the labour only and any parts that are required will be extra. I paid a little more than this to have my 260 stripped, inspected, and put back together with new seals but no new clutches or bearings. Do you know how many hours your gearbox has done? ................Dave I believe this is the case.. However he has parts laying around he said he would change a clutch plate for free as he has an old one knocking about. We shall see... As for other questions, the oil in it looks very clean yet thin so I will put some 10/40 in it tomorrow (asked the gearbox guy he said its OK oil) As for the pulling the lever I had a hire boat mechanic have a look first thing he did was that and he said it wasn't quit engaging... Although the prop was spinning... I shall have a play tomorrow, I need to have the controller apart and adjust from there too... See what happens.. Oil change in the morning, then see what happens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmr Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, Carl.b said: I believe this is the case.. However he has parts laying around he said he would change a clutch plate for free as he has an old one knocking about. We shall see... As for other questions, the oil in it looks very clean yet thin so I will put some 10/40 in it tomorrow (asked the gearbox guy he said its OK oil) As for the pulling the lever I had a hire boat mechanic have a look first thing he did was that and he said it wasn't quit engaging... Although the prop was spinning... I shall have a play tomorrow, I need to have the controller apart and adjust from there too... See what happens.. Oil change in the morning, then see what happens... It should really be 15/40 but I reckon 10/40 will be fine. The oil from a 260 normally comes out clean but slightly brown, gearbox oil does not go nasty black like wot engine oil does. It should be fairly easy to take the cable off the gearbox so do this and see how far the lever can e moved, then put the cable back on and confirm the cable is moving the lever almost the full amount. Do you have any idea how many hours the box has done and how often the oil has got changes? With frequent oil changes the 260 can do very high hours but not sure about your older design of box. .................Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl.b Posted July 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 26 minutes ago, dmr said: It should really be 15/40 but I reckon 10/40 will be fine. The oil from a 260 normally comes out clean but slightly brown, gearbox oil does not go nasty black like wot engine oil does. It should be fairly easy to take the cable off the gearbox so do this and see how far the lever can e moved, then put the cable back on and confirm the cable is moving the lever almost the full amount. Do you have any idea how many hours the box has done and how often the oil has got changes? With frequent oil changes the 260 can do very high hours but not sure about your older design of box. .................Dave Hi Dave, I think the lever moves like say another 10mm more with the cable off... That mechanic said it didnt make a difference... Although I may beg to differ... I shall change the oil and try get into the back of the controller tomorrow am... I'm at Tixall wide, so not far from home (Shardlow) but would hope I can sort myself without paying 500 quid... Forgot to mention the cable on the gearbox end is extended to its maximum.... Will need to make any adjustments on the lever end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hider Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, Carl.b said: Hi Dave, I think the lever moves like say another 10mm more with the cable off... That mechanic said it didnt make a difference... Although I may beg to differ... I shall change the oil and try get into the back of the controller tomorrow am... I'm at Tixall wide, so not far from home (Shardlow) but would hope I can sort myself without paying 500 quid... Forgot to mention the cable on the gearbox end is extended to its maximum.... Will need to make any adjustments on the lever end The lever on the gearbox has 3 definite detent positions, forward, neutral and reverse. It directs hydraulic pressure to the clutches. It needs to move fully to these positions for positive engagement of the clutches. Take the cable off the lever and you will be able to feel the 3 positions, the cable needs to connect without having to move the lever from its proper detent in all 3 positions. You can try running the engine and check for positive engagement by moving the lever by hand without the cable connected. Do make sure the cable is not about to snap, they often do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl.b Posted July 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 I have been hoping the whole time the cable was to blame, but when a hire boat mechanic says no its something different (they also repair other boats BTW) it makes you believe something else is wrong! I shall have a day off tomorrow then I think, try change the cable of I can get one at the junction... Or make a bodge lol to get me back... Thanks a bunch for your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshire cat Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 3 hours ago, dmr said: £360 is a good price for a gearbox rebuild, but I suspect this is the labour only and any parts that are required will be extra. I paid a little more than this to have my 260 stripped, inspected, and put back together with new seals but no new clutches or bearings. Do you know how many hours your gearbox has done? ................Dave You was lucky. RCR charged £1500 for a replacement 260 box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted July 5, 2019 Report Share Posted July 5, 2019 21 hours ago, Cheshire cat said: You was lucky. RCR charged £1500 for a replacement 260 box. How much did they allow on the old one. That is about the new outright price https://www.asap-supplies.com/prm-280d2-marine-newage-gearbox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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