Induction Hobs & Crick Boats 2019

[IanD]

7 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

 

I'm not really sure what the advantages are of gas free boats, but since probably 99% of canal boats have lpg systems installed and we rarely hear about gas fires, explosions, etc, then I wouldn't have thought it was worth all the bother and expense of the heavily upgraded and complex electrical system required to cope with cooking.

 

Why would one want to use difficult to produce and store chemical energy from one's batteries for heating food in pots and pans or heating an oven, when there's a much better fuel that's widely available, easy to use and most British householders actually prefer to mains electric cooking because it's more controllable? It makes no sense to me. 

 

And as for induction hobs, nothing would induce me to put one on a boat.

99% of boats have LPG systems installed, and they're probably the same 99% that have (relatively) small 12V battery banks. The disadvantage of gas -- apart from the (very small) explosion risk -- is that you have to find and swap gas bottles instead of using a big diesel tank for everything, and have a gas grill and oven which are generally rubbish; one way round the need for gas is to have a diesel stove, but these have their own big problems when used for cooking.

 

Another way -- if you're going to have a lot of 240V appliances on the boat anyway -- is to have a much bigger traction cell battery bank (something like 20kWh at 48V), a massive alternator (100A 48V?) and a big charger/inverter (5kW) to charge the batteries in a reasonable time. A coconned generator is an alternative but a very expensive one; if the propulsion engine is heavily soundproofed and can charge the batteries in a few hours, it seems like a btter solution.

 

If you're going to do this -- yes I know it's the "living on land not aboard" lifestyle which a lot of people rail against, but is perfectly valid if that's what you want and are willing to pay for -- then you have enough battery and charging capacity to make a gas-free boat perfectly feasible. You get a (much better) electric oven/grill, and a (very controllable) induction hob. But you have to do it *properly* with heavy-duty (and expensive) components and a properly designed charging system all supporting around 5kW, not just strap a few 12V batteries to a bigger 12V alternator.

 

Expensive and not for everyone but could be just right for some people where it's not all about the cost. Gas plus a feeble 240V system is undoubtedly much cheaper, which why this is what most boats have.

 

P.S. It would be nice if people on the forum didn't attack proposals because they don't like them from their personal point of view, instead of looking at them from somebody else's POV who might have very different priorities. Factual arguments for and against are of course always valid... ?

 

P.P.S. The risk of an explosion is small but the consequences are large; for some people (not me) this justifies going gas-free, it's the same reason some people won't have gas cooking in the house.

Edited July 6, 2019 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

Another way -- if you're going to have a lot of 240V appliances on the boat anyway -- is to have a much bigger traction cell battery bank (something like 20kWh at 48V), a massive alternator (100A 48V?) and a big inverter (5kW) to charge the batteries in a reasonable time. A coconned generator is an alternative but a very expensive one; if the propulsion engine is heavily soundproofed and can charge the batteries in a few hours, it seems like a btter solution.

Should that read "Battery Charger" ?

[BruceinSanity]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

If you're going to do this -- yes I know it's the "living on land not aboard" lifestyle which a lot of people rail against, but is perfectly valid if that's what you want and are willing to pay for -- then you have enough battery and charging capacity to make a gas-free boat perfectly feasible. You get a (much better) electric oven/grill, and a (very controllable) induction hob. But you have to do it *properly* with heavy-duty (and expensive) components and a properly designed charging system all supporting around 5kW, not just strap a few 12V batteries to a bigger 12V alternator.

Up until now we’ve stayed with the typical gas cooker+solid fuel stove+diesel CH boiler on our boats, but as we get older and more feeble (even without my present scary health problems described here et seq) lugging gas cylinders and bags of coal gets to be a problem. So the next boat is going to be gas free with a big LiFePo4 bank, an induction hob and a diesel-electric drive, hopefully. I see Fischer Panda are now offering a drop in genny+electric motor package, just like all those locomotives and modern ships.

 

Tradtionalists may feel free to sneer, glad to give you something else to grumble at ?.

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Should that read "Battery Charger" ?

I meant [a massive alternator and a big inverter/charger], capable of about 5kW when charging (engine or mains) or discharging.

11 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Up until now we’ve stayed with the typical gas cooker+solid fuel stove+diesel CH boiler on our boats, but as we get older and more feeble (even without my present scary health problems described here et seq) lugging gas cylinders and bags of coal gets to be a problem. So the next boat is going to be gas free with a big LiFePo4 bank, an induction hob and a diesel-electric drive, hopefully. I see Fischer Panda are now offering a drop in genny+electric motor package, just like all those locomotives and modern ships.

 

Tradtionalists may feel free to sneer, glad to give you something else to grumble at ?.

A series hybrid (which is what the Fischer-Panda system is IIRC) is less suited for a narrowboat than a parallel hybrid (like the ones from hybridmarine.co.uk), and is *very* expensive indeed -- have you looked at the Fischer-Panda cost? [clue: it makes the other solutions look like a bargain]

 

If you just want the big electric/gas-free aspects not a hybrid drive, you could also consider the Hybrid Marine PowerStation or the Integrel mega-alternator solution.

 

A big (tens of kWh) properly-managed LiFePo4 bank is also still expensive compared to a lead-acid bank of 2V traction cells, though a lot smaller and lighter so easier to fit in to a "standard" boat rather than a custom-designed one (but they're basically free ballast in a narrowboat). No charging tail and high efficiency are advantages, lifetime is probably not that much better than traction cells.

 

A boat where *everything* runs off a big diesel tank (no gas or coal) would be attractive to some, and abhorrent to others ?

Edited July 6, 2019 by IanD

[cuthound]

51 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Should that read "Battery Charger" ?

 

Perhaps he is thinking of using the inverter to power a battery charger..... 

 

Hang on a minute I think there might be a flaw in that plan ???

 

48 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Up until now we’ve stayed with the typical gas cooker+solid fuel stove+diesel CH boiler on our boats, but as we get older and more feeble (even without my present scary health problems described here et seq) lugging gas cylinders and bags of coal gets to be a problem. So the next boat is going to be gas free with a big LiFePo4 bank, an induction hob and a diesel-electric drive, hopefully. I see Fischer Panda are now offering a drop in genny+electric motor package, just like all those locomotives and modern ships.

 

Tradtionalists may feel free to sneer, glad to give you something else to grumble at ?.

 

If you get a diesel drip stove and a diesel hob and cooker you dont have to lug gas bottles or bags of coal without the expense of an (off the shelf) LifePo4.

 

However I think you are probably right that future boats will use the format you describe.

 

That said diesel electric drive is not as efficient as  a conventional engine and gearbox, unless you are travelling through a heavily locked section because unlike cars, boats cannot benefit from regenerative braking. A large solar array can go some way to mitigating this for a significant part of the year though.

Edited July 6, 2019 by cuthound
To remove a letter masquerading as a space