Boat Sitting too high?

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, 70liveaboard said:

Why I even lower myself to answer you and your cronies is frankly mind boggling for me.

 

--To put this more clearly people, I aim this at the normal everyday folk that tend to post little and avoid this crowd, but would enjoy a forum free of these...

Well, I'll leave out what I really think about them.. suffice to say, just check 'march of the wide beam' thread plus many, infact most threads that these cronies hang around in (which ends up all of them, because they are all knowledgeable ?,  in their own minds that is). See what and how it simply degenerates, which seems an apt word here.--

 

Anyway, to my response god only knows why and my last time with any of these people:

amaresearch...

Diesel generation continues to be... blah blah &.. in the domestic and 'leisure' market has increased year on year since.......blah, blah

No I'll stop myself there, they're really not worth the time of day to answer too..

______

 

 

@deeplock, its up to you my friend. Check with the surveyor and builder, plus others around the area that have boats (large ones) that generate their own (off grid) power. How they do it and with what. That's the best advice I can think of.

I'll leave your thread too you and the others. I said what I have to say anyway.

 

 

 

Whilst I can appreciate what you are trying to say I also know that what anyone takes from your original post could well be something very different to what you mean. After many, many years  delivering technical courses of varying types to a wide range of ages plus the questions I get directly or via the magazine I know that to be blunt many people seem to have not technical ability, both theoretical and practical, and little if any common sense. This is why I side with those who criticised your original post. It was in my view not detailed enough and did not wan of the potential consequences of not fully understanding it.

 

To anyone else considering the advice. Check the individuals post count and reputation points. Then look a a few of topics they have posted in so you can get some idea of their competence to advise.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I am surprised that you should say that.

 

I have had several "larger leisure vessels" and currently still have two (one 14 foot beam and one  Ocean Going Category A 23 foot beam) and have associated with people & many, many boats in the "larger leisure vessel" market, and I can hand on heart say I have never seen an installation such as you describe.

 

I am sure I would have heard of it (in more ways that one) if they were (as you suggest) "widely used".

 

It is really foolhardy to give advice when you are not au fait with the subject - I would rather (to quote you) 'scaremonger' based on knowledge and facts and provide examples of why it is wrong and let the OP make his own informed decision.

I have seen one mounted on the arse end of a Narrowboat, between the steerer and the tiller. Not something I would want

[Detling]

One boater who had a frame diesel generator on his deck, finished up in court in London for excessive noise, i.e. it exceeded 120 dB or in laymans terms f****y deafening. (he was moored under a bridge which amplified the racket) apparently he was in the habit of starting it and then going to the pub for a few hours!

 

[cuthound]

15 hours ago, 70liveaboard said:

Not the carry type..

 

I think Ford do one already in a sound proof box. Most all generators will have to be CE marked, certainly from EU. Marine use is/was a grey area, that is why I said ask the surveyor and indeed fitter..

 

When I say frame, I mean the frame it is stood on, I suppose 'engine bed' perhaps, may be clearer. If a generator is on a frame/bed, then yes it will have mounts within the case (small rubber or similar). That should be o.k. to fit. Again ask fitter & surveyor. But a further set of mounts might make it less noisy and reduce vibration, depends where your advised for location and so on.

 

@Deeplock, plus shop around, do not, repeat, do not, go through marine industry, unless you can get a trade price. Find out the type you can use via the surveyor, which I already stated for you and then source the product. Possibly buy through your builder, he owes you one anyway. Shipping in from abroad could well be cheaper, if shipped in from an EU country it will have the CE mark. Just check with a surveyor prior to buying if the model your thinking of is o.k. for use on a boat. A set of paper specs for the generator, should be enough for a surveyor to decide.

 

I've said all this in the post. Shame people don't read.

 

To make things easier place the generator topside and make a seat or whatever to cover. That could open up other types of generator sets to use and will not need exhaust etc. Just ask around, best the surveyor, he will no doubt have tested boats with generator sets fitted.

 

Edit: I am surprised and indeed perplexed as these are the most widely used type of power generation for the leisure industry for the larger leisure vessels/craft & vehicles etc. But no one here seems to know that.. Batteries just don't do the job larger vessels need really.

 

I'll leave it to you @deeplock, just use the right people and if you want to look further into a generator set to use, ask the surveyor when you see him, if he has any thoughts on it. He may well have another idea, better still..

 

 

I have worked on installin generators all of my working life.

 

A frame generator is a specific type of generator, mounted on an open frame, which may or may not include wheels. Like the attached image.

 

When installing one in a confined space, as well as noise breakout considerations you need to consider how you will manage aspiration air, cooling air and exhaust gases to meet the manufacturers recommendations. Failure to do so will end in tesrs.

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by cuthound
Spillung

[WotEver]

I think the second strongest point against frame generators (or in fact probably any non marine generator) is that they’re air cooled. For quiet running and reliable cooling you really need a water cooled device.

 

Obviously the strongest argument against them is that they’re not designed to take an external exhaust. 

[Alan de Enfield]

On ‎05‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 10:06, 70liveaboard said:

 

Diesel generation continues to be... blah blah &.. in the domestic and 'leisure' market has increased year on year since.......blah, blah

 

You are correct, - I knew there must be at least one.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[70liveaboard]

@deeplock

 

Quick rundown for you:

 

Sound proof box, 18mm wbp ply, lined as below.. Not sure you would need to mount, should be o.k. just as it comes.

The box and generator will require all the below, fitter will advise, as I said prior.

Before having the box made, have your fitter know where outlets etc need to be placed.

 

Insulation for the box: Laminated thermal acoustic sound proofing 10-25mm thick.. Must be 'non flamable' and also 'flame retardent. Usually foil lined or similar (engine bay sound proofing).. Thickness will depend on sound (db output), so think on and get advise from whoever your fitter is.

 

Exhaust: you may need to get this made, quite easily made by a fabricator or there may be an outlet (I think there are on these genny sets) onboard to directly link too, fitter will advise. Also a silencer could be added standard, fitter will advise. However, you may not need an additional exhaust, i.e. the generator's exhaust could be channeled to hull side via ducting from the box, fitter will advise. That will depend on box location really.

 

Fan (air supply): a fan will be required to give the generator 'box' installation plenty of air. This will require ducting from hull side, again fitter will advise. If located in engine bay, use 'semi rigid aluminium ducting. Fan should run directly from genny.

Any air intake will be better from the side of the hull that has 'no' exhaust...

 

Extractor vent (or fan): Baffle or similar type vent to side of hull. Again depending on genny location, i.e. if in engine bay use the semi rigid type ducting as above. It may be adisable to fit an extractor fan here too, but fitter will advise. Probably wouldn't need it.

 

Additional insulation: consider insulating the engine bay, this will also add a reduction in sound maybe 10db or so. Well worth it if your buying insulation for the box. Get it at the same time.

 

Fuel side: fitter will need to have this fed from onboard tank (regs, air etc) if below deck. So fuel pipe, possible pump, fittings etc,  would be required and the removal of onboard fuel tank. Not difficult or hard to do, for experienced engineer/fitter.

If the box is to stand on your deck, say incorporated as a seat or so, then you can use the onboard fuel tank if you want (again get advice) cheaper and easier..

 

The electrical side is where the regs get really stringent. So use a qualified sparky, as I said before. All the generator side will be covered for safety. But that safety has to apply to boat side. So, consumer unit, RCD (trips etc), changeover switch incorporated ie. shore to genny etc.. Again your sparky will advise. (Ask about MCB too)

 

A Hyundai 7kw portable genny can be used (around £1400), if fitted correctly. This comes as 'silent' in box genny, but silent will be 70db @ 7mtrs, which is perfectly legal to use anywhere more or less. However, the box will bring that down considerably, possibly to 50-55db or so. Underdeck will also add db reduction, insulated engine bay much more too.

 

If done right, you could have it up and running with around a 40db or so sound output. Completely self sufficient power wise when cruising or moored.

 

As I said before, just use the right people/fitter.

 

That is of course if you want to go electric onboard. That shown above, should be enough power for a house, so o.k. for your.. very large boat..

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by 70liveaboard

[Captain Pegg]

58 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

 

If done right, you could have it up and running with around a 40db or so sound output.

 

Pardon?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Pardon?

The man is away with the fairies.

 

 

 

[70liveaboard]

@deeplock

 

Forgot to mention and can't edit now, so, ask the fitter to use sound baffles for air intake and outlet. They are very easy to make and can be incorporated into the box design and will reduce sound further still.

Use the same insulation for the baffles.

 

Edit: if you want to snazz the box up a little 'exterior wise', 6082t6 aluminium sheet is not too expensive.

Edited July 7, 2019 by 70liveaboard

[Tony Brooks]

Please bare with this, I think it is relevant. A little example of so called marine engineer's/fitters on the cut. My Bukh has always smoked a bit at low speed like when passing moored boats and is much worse after a prolonged period of idling. When I first got the boat I had the injectors overhauled and it made no difference. Then I changed the valve stem oil seals and checked the stems for wear. Again no difference so I had a chat with TW Marine, the Bukh inland specialists who told me that when the DV36 started to be fitted in canal boats the smoking became apparent and Bukh had spent a long time in the UK trying various injection pressures and injection timing to cure it, all without success. They/Viking afloat also converted the water jacketed exhaust manifold to a dry one to try to raise the exhaust temperature. Again without success. Now I have known for far too long that despite their advant6ages direct injection engines can smoke a bit at low speed and power because of lack of turbulence in the cylinders. Modern designs are far better because of computer modelling of air flow and combustion. This is why most of our marinised engines use indirect injection. As the engine has all but zero oil consumption and starts very easily from cold (as a direct injected engine should) I took TW Marine's advice and happily live with it.

 

On Thursday a walker on the towpath started coughing loudly and told me the engine was smoking badly, it was not, it was more of a haze and he was very insistent it was smoking badly so I started to explain that for the DV36 such smoke was to be expected. He denied this, told me he was a marine engineer (which I very much doubt because  proper marine engineers would normally have a degree and work on real ships) and I needed the injectors done. I told him they had been and not made no difference, he countered that it needed valve stem oil seals so I again told him they had been done and it made no difference. The he said it needed the head off to grind the valves. At that I gave up. I believe he was touting for business trying to scare gullible boaters and I very much doubt he held any qualifications in small diesel engine maintenance.

 

Now the point of this post is that 70 liveboard is totally relying upon unknown third parties to ensure a safe installation of said frame generator and if the OP happened to pick the chap above I have the gravest of doubts the installation would be anything but a bodge and there for likely unsafe. I still think the poster has and keeps giving very poor advice that is best ignored.

 

 

 

[blackrose]

Frame type diesel generators belong on building sites, not on boats.

 

I've seen them boxed in and "soundproofed" and they're still noisy b*stards. To recommend getting one installed properly is a contradiction in terms because the whole idea is a bodge from the start.

 

It's not just the noise either, it's the vibration. A proper marine diesel generator like this (the smallest in the range) has a balanced 3 cylinder 1500rpm water cooled engine, but it will come to money.

 

https://www.northern-lights.com/m673ld3g/#1487271374991-82aa02e1-b21a 

[howardang]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Please bare with this, I think it is relevant. A little example of so called marine engineer's/fitters on the cut. My Bukh has always smoked a bit at low speed like when passing moored boats and is much worse after a prolonged period of idling. When I first got the boat I had the injectors overhauled and it made no difference. Then I changed the valve stem oil seals and checked the stems for wear. Again no difference so I had a chat with TW Marine, the Bukh inland specialists who told me that when the DV36 started to be fitted in canal boats the smoking became apparent and Bukh had spent a long time in the UK trying various injection pressures and injection timing to cure it, all without success. They/Viking afloat also converted the water jacketed exhaust manifold to a dry one to try to raise the exhaust temperature. Again without success. Now I have known for far too long that despite their advant6ages direct injection engines can smoke a bit at low speed and power because of lack of turbulence in the cylinders. Modern designs are far better because of computer modelling of air flow and combustion. This is why most of our marinised engines use indirect injection. As the engine has all but zero oil consumption and starts very easily from cold (as a direct injected engine should) I took TW Marine's advice and happily live with it.

 

On Thursday a walker on the towpath started coughing loudly and told me the engine was smoking badly, it was not, it was more of a haze and he was very insistent it was smoking badly so I started to explain that for the DV36 such smoke was to be expected. He denied this, told me he was a marine engineer (which I very much doubt because  proper marine engineers would normally have a degree and work on real ships) and I needed the injectors done. I told him they had been and not made no difference, he countered that it needed valve stem oil seals so I again told him they had been done and it made no difference. The he said it needed the head off to grind the valves. At that I gave up. I believe he was touting for business trying to scare gullible boaters and I very much doubt he held any qualifications in small diesel engine maintenance.

 

Now the point of this post is that 70 liveboard is totally relying upon unknown third parties to ensure a safe installation of said frame generator and if the OP happened to pick the chap above I have the gravest of doubts the installation would be anything but a bodge and there for likely unsafe. I still think the poster has and keeps giving very poor advice that is best ignored.

 

 

 

I like Cuthound's definition of an engineer (I hope he doesn't mind me plagiarising it): "Someone who does precision guesswork based on unreliable data provided by those of questionable knowledge".

 

It could be applied to many of the "Marine Engineers" found on and around the cut, although in my experience there are some notable exceptions.

 

 

 

Howard

[Chris Williams]

On ‎04‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 21:12, David Mack said:

The portable generator was not intended by its manufacturer to be installed into an enclosed space, nor was it intended to be modified in any way.

Surely this says it all.  If the maker says 'No'  just accept that it is a bad idea.

[howardang]

10 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

Surely this says it all.  If the maker says 'No'  just accept that it is a bad idea.

I see from his profile that this chap is a "Boatbuilder". I am no engineer, and don't have a lot of experience of these types of generators so it would be interesting to know how many boats he has built with similar installations if any, and if so, how the set up worked in practice. Personally,I would be inclined to follow the advice of the manufacturer.

 

Howard

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, howardang said:

I see from his profile that this chap is a "Boatbuilder".

Have you seen my occupation ?

[howardang]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Have you seen my occupation ?

I think that proves the point I was hinting at - you can't take at face value how someone describes themselves.

 

Howard

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, howardang said:

I think that proves the point I was hinting at - you can't take at face value how someone describes themselves.

 

Howard

 

Eggsactly.

 

This is the internet - everyone is hidden behind a screen and a (potentially) artificial persona.

[dmr]

8 hours ago, 70liveaboard said:

If done right, you could have it up and running with around a 40db or so sound output. Completely self sufficient power wise when cruising or moored.

 

 

So are we talking about 40dBA (sound pressure) at 1 metre here, which would be very very impressive, or 40dBA at some other distance (7.5m?). I consulted on a project where the designer had specified 30dBA inside an office (background noise, no generator   ) and that was a nightmare.

 

..............Dave

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, howardang said:

I think that proves the point I was hinting at - you can't take at face value how someone describes themselves.

 

Howard

...and some of us are muppets.

[cuthound]

As I have already said, I installed standby generator sets for a living.

 

A typical frame generator will be around 100dBA at 1 metre.

 

As Wotever pointed put, they are air cooled, which ultimately  limits how quiet they can be made, because the water jacket reduces noise and they need larger air inlet and outlet to handle the cooling air As well as the aspiration air. Larger holes mean more noise breakout.

 

The best, professional noise attenuation enclosures (which cost £1000's) can reduce the noise by a maximum of 40dBA. Then the building or in this case, the boat will possibly reduce the breakout noise by maybe 10dBA.

 

I always aimed for 70dBA at 1 metre from the perimeter for sites without near neighbours, and 50dBA at 1 metre in residential areas.

 

A single skinned wooden enclosed might reduce the noise levels by 15dBA.

To get a frame generator down to 50dBA at 1 metre would require a huge amount of money spending on the enclosure, which would be double skinned, lined on the inside with perforated steel panels with multi-layere noise insulation material, optimised to take out specific frequencies in between. The seal to the baseplate will either be mastic or two layers of rubber tubing like a car door. It will also need air inlet and outlet attenuation, typically baffles of noise attenuation material sandwiched in perforated panels and exhaust attenuation and noise attenuation around cable and fuel line entries to prevent noise breakout. Finally the frame of the generator will need mounting on anti-vibration mounts to minimise the transmission of vibration to the hull.

 

A commercial "silent" generator will have all of the above, and this is why they cost so much (As I said in my earlier post).

Whilst the amatuer can reduce noise levels by quite a bit, he will never be able to achieve the low noise levels needed to run an embedded generator that won't disturb near neighbours, especially after 20:00.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by cuthound
Clarification.

[RMK]

On 07/07/2019 at 13:35, howardang said:

I think that proves the point I was hinting at - you can't take at face value how someone describes themselves.

 

Howard

We know -70- was a builder and yes you can use the type of gen set he is talking about easily. Of course they're not designed for that, but that is boats in a nutshell. I would say especially for those that can't afford the silly priced ones and they are silly prices.

It was a good explanation of the sound proofing other than thicker would be to our spec. We would put it on the stern deck built into seating, have done this many times on wide beams.

It isn't going to be quiet as such, but within guidelines and really we would recommend only when out and about. Shore hookup is a must really for what the owner needs. Or silly money, if they want to use it regularly.

 

 

As to the ballast problem and that is a big problem there looking at that photo. Taking the floor up is the only way to do this properly, as Chris said.

Would love to know how this boat turned out.

 

I know Chris, he uses one of our old pics, but is entitled to, he bought enough shells from us.

 

Hi Chris, you knew my brother pretty well. Do you still build ? (regards Barry)

[DeepLock]

Morning Gents

 

OP here. Sorry I haven’t been on this thread for a bit, I've had a lot going on! I can see all the fantastic ideas and suggestions - thank you to ALL of you. Ill try and respond to the genny options later, ive also been looking at the Honda eu20 ‘suitcase’ generator.

 

in regards to the ballast issue, there have been some significant improvements. I had a stack of steel plates placed under the galley before kitchen was installed. This has dropped the Uxter plate to less than half inch above water. We still have a few bits to go in the galley as well as granite worktops so hoping this will complete the final trim. Boat builders asked me to finalise fit out and they will come back to do a final trim.  

 

Ill get get a picture tonight.

[system 4-50]

The Honda EU20i is a quiet, reliable and economical generator - but it is petrol (as supplied though gas conversions are possible) and petrol exhaust fumes stink.  I have one, bought from new, and professionally serviced, and I have stopped using it because of the smell.  When the wind was in the right direction I would not smell it at all, but people moored downwind would up sticks and move to avoid it.  However not everybody would agree.  Diesel fumes from a well-maintained modern engine are not unpleasant.  The EU20i does not actually generate a very large amount of power, be careful to discriminate between its peak output (still not huge) and its steady output.  It can only do the peak for very short periods of time. It certainly is not sufficient to support an electric boat (we are not talking propulsion here.).

All IMHO.

Edited July 22, 2019 by system 4-50

[70liveaboard]

On 22/07/2019 at 05:00, RMK said:

We know -70- was a builder and yes you can use the type of gen set he is talking about easily. Of course they're not designed for that, but that is boats in a nutshell. I would say especially for those that can't afford the silly priced ones and they are silly prices.

It was a good explanation of the sound proofing other than thicker would be to our spec. We would put it on the stern deck built into seating, have done this many times on wide beams.

It isn't going to be quiet as such, but within guidelines and really we would recommend only when out and about. Shore hookup is a must really for what the owner needs. Or silly money, if they want to use it regularly.

 

 

As to the ballast problem and that is a big problem there looking at that photo. Taking the floor up is the only way to do this properly, as Chris said.

Would love to know how this boat turned out.

 

I know Chris, he uses one of our old pics, but is entitled to, he bought enough shells from us.

 

Hi Chris, you knew my brother pretty well. Do you still build ? (regards Barry)

I missed this. Well hello Baz

No I don't build now (retired), my son does though.

Thanks for the nod towards the pic, I did ask someone you know/knew pretty well, he said it would be o.k.

 

How is your Chris, is he still around building, I know you do. Haven't been intouch at all, time passes so quickly.

Hope all is well.