Boat Sitting too high?

[hider]

Sash weights if you find them or lead scrap for maximum weight minimum volume.

Of course DU beats hands down for density. And you would need less lights, and have no bugs living inside.

[DeepLock]

22 minutes ago, howardang said:

I would have a look at what you have actually contracted to buy. For example, is it a bare shell for self fit out or is it described as a sail -away. As a self fit out it is reasonable for the manufacturer to suggest that you should carry out the final ballasting as part of the fit out. However, if it is a sail -away I think it would very much depend on what the manufacturer said he was going to include. Have you any written spec concerning what you were purchasing? If you have to take responsibility for ballasting you are going to need a large quantity, as others have already suggested, and access could be a real problem if bulkheads or other such items have already been fitted.

 

Howard

Hi Howard,

 

its a sailway lined but there was was no mention of ballast concerns - they are coming down to have a look but I wanted to get your opinions so thank you! 

[DeepLock]

33 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

How big are the diesel and water tanks, and are they full or empty? There could be a tonne or more there.

 

How many leisure batteries are being added?  Stove? Large calorifier? Shower enclosure and tiling?

 

There could easily be a couple of tonnes to add yet, but we don't know.

400 litre water diesel tank, approx 30% full. Calorifier tank approx 3 ft height, don’t know the capacity yet will check. Water tank located in stern, approx half full but can’t remember the capacity. 3 Leisure batteries already installed. No stove, just electric oven.

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, DeepLock said:

No stove, just electric oven.

Totally off topic, but, interested in how you are going to power an electric oven when not connected to the 'shore-line mains'.

[DeepLock]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Totally off topic, but, interested in how you are going to power an electric oven when not connected to the 'shore-line mains'.

I was expecting the leisure batteries and engine running would power the oven? 

 

I have a steeling inverter with 3 leisure batteries 

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, DeepLock said:

I was expecting the leisure batteries and engine running would power the oven? 

 

I have a steeling inverter with 3 leisure batteries 

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

My thought is that many people have tried and failed to run electric ovens via batteries on boats.

 

A typical electric oven will be between 3000w and 5000w - that will be drawing between 300amps and 500 amps from the batteries.

A bank of 3 x 110ah batteries will last about 20 minutes.

You can kill a brand new set of batteries within a few days - this is one way of doing it.

 

If you can provide more details about :

1) Your battery type and Ah rate (size)

2) Invertor size and make

3) Oven 'wattage'

4) Alternator 'amps' 

5) Solar panels 'wattage'

 

We can make some suggestions based on the above information.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[roland elsdon]

My three batteries and 1.8 kw inverter cannot effectively  run our

1kw 10 litre hot water heater now the 12 v bit has failed. The inverter simply overheats as you would expect. ( as does the alternator.  )5 kw oven no way.

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, DeepLock said:

I was expecting the leisure batteries and engine running would power the oven? 

 

I have a steeling inverter with 3 leisure batteries 

 

Your thoughts?

My thoughts? It’s all going to end in tears.

 

How big an inverter? 4kW or larger?

 

An electric oven will use between 3 and 4kW. That’s over 300A drawn from the 12V system. A 100A alternator could cover 1/3 of that if the engine is running fast enough, which leaves 200A to come from the batteries. Assuming the batteries are 110Ah each you have a usable capacity of 165Ah which becomes more like 140Ah or even less with such a heavy load. That would allow you to use the oven for up to 40 minutes before you have to turn off all your electrics and recharge your batteries for 8 to 12 hours.

 

I’ve made several assumptions above, all of which could be wrong, but the general premise remains the same. An all-electric boat without many kW of solar and probably lithium batteries is a non-starter. 

[David Mack]

59 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No, steel is FAR denser than bricks or anything masonry and steel plate cut to well-fitting sizes gives about the best weight-to-volume easily available for ballast. 

 

Engineering bricks however give by far the best weight-per-£ spent. 

 

Steel is around 7.8 tonnes per cubic metre. Solid engineering bricks around 2T/m3, lightweight bricks, or bricks with holes through or a frog (recess) in one face may be as low as 1T/m3.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A typical electric oven will be between 3000w and 5000w 

 

Frankly, this is plain wrong. Maybe you are confusing an oven with a cooker. Ovens usually run from a 13a supply, max 3kw and often a lot less.  

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Frankly, this is plain wrong. Maybe you are confusing an oven with a cooker. Ovens usually run from a 13a supply, max 3kw and often a lot less.  

 

I agree that some ovens run at ~3kw and a 13a plug, but as I didn't know the 'range' I did a google search and it said 3kw-5kw.

 

Edit to add - Wotever seems to have similar figures (3Kw-4Kw)

Edited July 2, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Cheese]

Try to estimate the weight of everything you still have to add to the boat:  remaining fit out;  furniture, books etc; food & drink; people usually on board; average volumes in the diesel / water / waste tanks (which may depend on your cruising pattern / lifestyle).   Then you can get an idea of how much ballast you need.

 

As to where it needs to go, that may depend on your layout.   If your tanks and galley are all towards the stern you may need some ballast further forward.

[70liveaboard]

@Deeplock.

 

Is the diesel tank across the stern and how much fuel is in there ?

Where is the water tank located ?

 

My thoughts Deeplock are, the builder needs to sort out the problem. They should have gone over eveything with you when you ordered the shell. Even though they may not have been doing the fit-out, they would need to know roughly what you had in mind, so that they could have ballasted the boat to suit. Seeing as they were lining it out and getting back to the ballast may not be the easiest thing to do.

 

As many have said here, it is going to take 'some weight' to get her down into the water. ?

 

That is a large boat, hope you get some handling tips. Unless you've had one before.

Have you got any more pics ?

 

Anyway.. Good luck and congrats on your new boat..    I know! but it isn't the end of the world..

[Tony Brooks]

I think that you have a major problem with your anticipated electrical system unless you are permanently connected to a shoreline. As others have said running an electric - anything that creates heat - from the batteries with or without an inverter is a recipe for battery renewal on a monthly basis, especially as you only have three. I will be blunt - you MUST think again about this. If you absolutely must have an electric oven the start costing on-board built in diesel generators but my advice is sell the oven and get a gas one. Very few boats blow up and those that do are usually petrol boats operated by pillocks. Boat fires are usually caused by a stove or poor electrics.

 

Solar is not an answer for winter cruising but for high summer use you may get enough solar on a wide beam to  power the oven but you will need more than three batteries

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I agree that some ovens run at ~3kw and a 13a plug, but as I didn't know the 'range' I did a google search and it said 3kw-5kw.

 

Edit to add - Wotever seems to have similar figures (3Kw-4Kw)

 

Well I just checked too and the very first oven I looked at has a max power of 1,850W.

 

https://wickes.scene7.com/is/content/travisperkins/Ovens-Zanussi-Conventional-Stainless-Steel-Electric-Oven-ZZB10401XV~E0264_401289_TECH_0

 

 

[GUMPY]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well I just checked too and the very first oven I looked at has a max power of 1,850W.

 

https://wickes.scene7.com/is/content/travisperkins/Ovens-Zanussi-Conventional-Stainless-Steel-Electric-Oven-ZZB10401XV~E0264_401289_TECH_0

 

 

Having been researching ovens for the new kitchen in the house MtB is spot on, most single domestic ovens run on a 13amp plug and for what they do are relatively low wattage. The one I have chosen requires 16amp supply I have yet to find its exact wattage. double ovens however are a different kettle of fish needing ~4kw

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Loddon said:

different kettle of fish needing ~4kw

Now you've done it - @Dr Bob will soon be here.

[MtB]

 

Two fish in an oven.

 

One says to the other..... "Does this taste funny?"

 

 

OMG these jokes can get complicated. Don't let Alan see!!  ?

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Two fish in an oven.

 

One says to the other..... "Does this taste funny?"

 

 

OMG these jokes can get complicated. Don't let Alan see!!  ?

 

 

 

I struggle with 'complicated'.

 

Two Parrots sat on a perch, one says 'can you smell fish' ?

[Murflynn]

4 hours ago, DeepLock said:

 

they want to put steel under kitchen units 

 

 

 

ny predicament is that the kitchen fitter arrived today.  

You will need a lot more ballast if you put it under the kitchen floor.  The extreme rear of the boat will be the best location for minimising the amount of ballast needed to get the stern down (the horizontal plate should be just under the water).

You haven't mentioned the trim of the bow of the boat - ideally there should be a slight gradient from the front to the back of the boat (gunwale, roof, cabin floor), with your water and fuel tanks full.  

[MtB]

4 hours ago, DeepLock said:

ny predicament is that the kitchen fitter arrived today.

 

Cancel them. Putting 4 tonnes of steel ballast under the plinths will be a monumental bodge.

 

This is the first in (I suspect) a long series of cock-ups. The next one to hit is the electric oven (and presumably electric hob) you've mentioned. I suspect there are loads more. 

 

The time to re-plan your fit-out and do it properly is NOW, and not muddle through it devising bodges as you go. 

 

 

 

[howardang]

26 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Cancel them. Putting 4 tonnes of steel ballast under the plinths will be a monumental bodge.

 

This is the first in (I suspect) a long series of cock-ups. The next one to hit is the electric oven (and presumably electric hob) you've mentioned. I suspect there are loads more. 

 

The time to re-plan your fit-out and do it properly is NOW, and not muddle through it devising bodges as you go. 

 

 

 

I totally agree. I would suggest that you call a halt to any fitting out and get some help to sorting out what needs to be done. It may be advisable to pay for the services of a good surveyor because while getting answers on a forum such as this it will be a very messy process doing it like that and almost inevitably something may get overlooked. Bite the bullet now rather than regret later.

 

Howard

 

[Detling]

I am sure that both you and your kitchen fitter are aware of the requirements of the BSS (boat safety scheme) and the RCD recreational craft directive. Failure to comply could result in a boat you can't use and can't legally sell. This forum can give a lot of guidance and help.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Detling

[GUMPY]

48 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

ideally there should be a slight gradient from the front to the back of the boat (gunwale, roof, cabin floor), with your water and fuel tanks full.  

Most canal boats run better with the hull as close to hotizontal as you can get it.

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Most canal boats run better with the hull as close to hotizontal as you can get it.

 

Yeahbut that means another 4 tonnes of ballast in the front, too...

 

Oh and this is not a narrowboat.