Jump to content
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble

NEW: Following member feedback, we now have a Mooring & Marina Review forum. Post your review here.

Heartland

Replica craft or new build?

Featured Posts

A recent post has highlighted that the use of the term replica is not the best, or correct term to use for craft such as ADAMANT and HASTY. So what can be a word that is suitable. In the Antiques world where the provenance is not known the experts often use the term "in the style of". Many surviving  heritage craft have elements of rebuilding and reconstruction especially with the craft BW and certain boat builders chose to cut into two and later new owners decided to put back together or extend each half. Wooden boats through the nature of their fabric retain little of the original.

 

The comparison with Flying Scotsman is a valid observation. Railway locomotives through their working life had various levels of exams. Parts were replaced and boilers sometimes interchanged. Enthusiasts now finance new builds where a defunct class of locomotive is brought back through the construction of a brand new locomotive. Such work takes years to undertake and current schemes include a Patriot and a P2 class.

 

Recreation of narrow boats, or other craft to their original status also involves extensive work. The  attention to put back PRESIDENT into the style of a steamer is a case in point. And work is now needed to keep this craft in working order.

 

As to recreating a Duker, O understand the hull of Manchester is still at the Boat Museum at Ellesmere!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the National Historic Ships Register Definition

What is a replica?

A replica is a vessel which has been built from scratch as a copy of a vessel.

It should not be confused with a historic vessel undergoing major works which has been ‘reconstructed’ - returned to a known earlier state with the introduction of new material.  In some cases, a historic vessel may be subject to ‘extreme reconstruction’ where the majority of the original material is decayed or missing, resulting in a major rebuild using new materials. 

Different types of replication:

- True Replica

An exact and complete reproduction of the original vessel.

- Hull Replica

An exact replica of the hull of a vessel, but not the rig.

- Operational Replica

An accurate replica which has adaptations to meet modern-day health and safety, MCA and international regulations in order to allow the vessel to operate within carefully defined parameters.

- Hypothesis

A theoretical vessel based on archaeological, historical and technical information which can test theories but which cannot be guaranteed as a faithful recreation.

- Operational Hypothesis

A theoretical vessel based on archaeological, historical and technical information but with adaptations to meet modern-day health and safety, MCA and international regulations in order to allow the vessel to operate within carefully defined parameters.

- Representation

A vessel which draws on known features from the craft it has been designed to represent, but which may or may not take on the appearance of a specific vessel.  The emphasis is on overall impression rather than accuracy.

For more information on replica terminology or to see examples of the different types of replication, you can order a copy of the National Historic Ships’ guidance publication Conserving Historic Vessels.  When registering a vessel for inclusion on the UK Replica List, you will be asked to make an assessment as to which category of replication the vessel falls into, using the above headings.

               

 

There is a replica or representation of a1180262244_frodshamonbasinstoke.jpg.fd08c3fd1224db74cb7750d566adddc2.jpg 'Duker' around currently at the bottom of my garden

1180262244_frodshamonbasinstoke.jpg.fd08c3fd1224db74cb7750d566adddc2.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

There is a replica or representation of a 'Duker' around currently at the bottom of my garden

To my way of thinking M.S.C. FRODSHAM would be more representation than replica as it is built from a different material and method of construction to an original, and I suspect it is of narrow boat dimensions - the originals being a little wider if I am not mistaken :captain:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I Agree and I doubt if there are any true replica boats on the canals - I can't think of any.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Frodsham is another craft that was not included in the names of those DUKERS built for the Bridgewater. The first three had the hull and engine supplied by Ed Hayes of Stony Stratford and the dimensions were too wide to pass a 7ft lock. It was suggested that they were sent by road. 

 

Edward Hayes works was beside the road and involved a journey of about a mile through Stony Stratford to the wharf on the Buckingham Branch.

 

In view of the size of the works, as shown on the First OS the hulls might have been assembled elsewhere!

 

 

Watling works.png

Edited by Heartland

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

I Agree and I doubt if there are any true replica boats on the canals - I can't think of any.

The nearest I can think of (off the top of my head) would be PELLEW, built as a Yarwood type 'Admiral Class' motor by Brinklow Boat Services about 15 years ago. These boats were originally built of welded steel, as is PELLEW, and the Parsons Merganser diesel engine fitted to PELLEW is period correct having originally being fitted in the wooden pleasure boat TREES. PELLEW was fitted with a steel cabin conversion when built, but the rest of the boat is about as good as it can be in my opinion.

 

I must confess my favourite representation of a carrying narrow boat is ARUNDEL, built at Stockton Dry Dock in 2003 using OTLEY for its dimensions as it was on dock for structural hull works at the same time. ARUNDEL is a welded steel boat without false rivets, and worked on the Denham aggregate traffic for the first few years after completion  :captain:

 

Arundel.jpg.d349d15dd71d6335aad9ab5b2759df9e.jpg

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There probably will not be any replicas built of those recent working craft like the River Class that would be easy to reproduce because the techniques originally used do not lend themselves to the production of an attractive looking object hence the nickname dustbins. The facilities and the scale of the operation required to produce a true replica of an older working boat would seem extremely challenging and cost prohibitive but I am sure someone will do it at some point. I guess a wooden vessel would prove somewhat easier than trying to produce all that double curvature plating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

There probably will not be any replicas built of those recent working craft like the River Class that would be easy to reproduce because the techniques originally used do not lend themselves to the production of an attractive looking object hence the nickname dustbins. The facilities and the scale of the operation required to produce a true replica of an older working boat would seem extremely challenging and cost prohibitive but I am sure someone will do it at some point. I guess a wooden vessel would prove somewhat easier than trying to produce all that double curvature plating. 

Cost prohibitive will rarely be an issue to those who are driven to carry out such a project - just look at the higher end restorations of 'historic' boats which far exceed their ceiling values combined with the full order books for the companies that carry out these works, and some of these boatyards also build reproductions with similar financial negatives :captain:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

The nearest I can think of (off the top of my head) would be PELLEW, built as a Yarwood type 'Admiral Class' motor by Brinklow Boat Services about 15 years ago. These boats were originally built of welded steel, as is PELLEW, and the Parsons Merganser diesel engine fitted to PELLEW is period correct having originally being fitted in the wooden pleasure boat TREES. PELLEW was fitted with a steel cabin conversion when built, but the rest of the boat is about as good as it can be in my opinion.

 

I must confess my favourite representation of a carrying narrow boat is ARUNDEL, built at Stockton Dry Dock in 2003 using OTLEY for its dimensions as it was on dock for structural hull works at the same time. ARUNDEL is a welded steel boat without false rivets, and worked on the Denham aggregate traffic for the first few years after completion  :captain:

 

Arundel.jpg.d349d15dd71d6335aad9ab5b2759df9e.jpg

He knew how to load her too, aided by the extensive dredging carried out before the gravel project. Unusual to see a large boat that far down, he'd often pop in to make a brew passing us, knowing that the boat would stay in the channel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, pete harrison said:

Cost prohibitive will rarely be an issue to those who are driven to carry out such a project - just look at the higher end restorations of 'historic' boats which far exceed their ceiling values combined with the full order books for the companies that carry out these works, and some of these boatyards also build reproductions with similar financial negatives :captain:

All boats are a money pit. Old boats are even worse. Just as well some of us are prepared to fight logic and keep old boats afloat - best not to think about it. Old boats always have a character and history which is something a replica can never match no matter how exact it is so there must be a limit on what people would pay for something that isn't quite what it seems. However I would much rather see representations of boats that fit with the historic canal environment than some ghastly purple wide beamed boxes on the canal.

  • Love 1
  • Happy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my argument is why build a new version of a boat that is available that could be rebuild, bit like some steam engines ect, there are quite a few being build where there are already that type that could be rebuild and used rather than new being built, my opinion is same with boats if you want a particular boat and there is one about that can be repaired/rebuild surly it's better to save and have to original lines of a boat that build new if the same type but trying to copy the lines.

 

this is just my op I realise there are other obstacles ect that come into play.

 

I'm of the opposite if that type no longer exists and then yes a replica is worth it as you wouldn't see one otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Replica / copy cant say

Parglena was  based on Parbella but at 5/7 the size.

 

parglena10.jpg

Imgp1627.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’d like to point out that that is an old picture of Parbella and she is looking a lot smarter now 😂 I wouldn’t class Parglena as a replica, for a start they’ve used the dimensions after she was converted as as has been mentioned, it’s not the same size. A boat such as Hasty on the other hand I would class as a replica as both the owner and Brinklow were particular in getting it historically accurate, even down to parts which would’ve have been better aesthetically being left off.

 

I do regularly wish that Parbella drew as little as Parglena does though 🤦‍♀️

Edited by Tiggers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont think Adamant is a replica of anything. 

I think she is pretty standalone, steam boat built from an old day boat hull, not replicating anything.

her history as far as i am aware is of a gradual evolution into the lovely craft she is now, done by enthusiasts over a period. She certainly wasnt commissioned , it took years to do her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Tiggers said:

I’d like to point out that that is an old picture of Parbella and she is looking a lot smarter now 😂 I wouldn’t class Parglena as a replica, for a start they’ve used the dimensions after she was converted as as has been mentioned, it’s not the same size. A boat such as Hasty on the other hand I would class as a replica as both the owner and Brinklow were particular in getting it historically accurate, even down to parts which would’ve have been better aesthetically being left off.

 

I do regularly wish that Parbella drew as little as Parglena does though 🤦‍♀️

I didn't want to use a photo of Parbella I had grabbed from the interweb as it could infringe copyright, so I used one I had here.

I have quite a few photos of Parbella in a far worse state than that ;)

When I had Parglena surveyed by Roger and Mike it was them that suggested that I went for a name starting in Parg to keep continuity.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Loddon said:

 

When I had Parglena surveyed by Roger and Mike it was them that suggested that I went for a name starting in Parg to keep continuity.

 

A pleasing thought - but how does a name starting in Parkeep coninuity with Parbella?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Athy said:

A pleasing thought - but how does a name starting in Parkeep coninuity with Parbella?

There were 6 Duker motor barges built originally not including the Iris Abbot which was built for a different company.

Paradine

Parbella

Parcastle

Parderry

Parelia

Parfield

 

So you see the logic now.

I have an article written by Roger on the 50th anniversary  detailing the original history of them but cant put it up here due to copyright.

Edited by Loddon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

There were 6 Duker motor barges built originally not including the Iris Abbot which was built for a different company.

Paradine

Parbella

Parcastle

Parderry

Parelia

Parfield

So you see the logic now.

Parhaps that list makes it obvious.

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I didn't want to use a photo of Parbella I had grabbed from the interweb as it could infringe copyright, so I used one I had here.

I have quite a few photos of Parbella in a far worse state than that ;)

When I had Parglena surveyed by Roger and Mike it was them that suggested that I went for a name starting in Parg to keep continuity.

 

Yes, she was in a bit of a mess when we bought her about 6 years ago! What did Parglena draw out of interest?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Loddon said:

 

So you see the logic now.

 

I absolutely do, yes, thanks for explaining!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Parhaps that list makes it obvious.

ParAdine

ParBella

ParCastle

ParDerry

ParElia

ParField

ParGlena

Edited by Tiggers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Tiggers said:

Yes, she was in a bit of a mess when we bought her about 6 years ago! What did Parglena draw out of interest?

61'8" x 11'6" x 3' after we lengthened her I always felt she was to short or to wide at 50ft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Tiggers said:

ParAdine

ParBella

ParCastle

ParDerry

ParElia

ParField

ParGlena

ParHaps wasn't a typo of perhaps ... it was a suggestion for the next in the series!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Parhaps that list makes it obvious.

Don't get parinoid about it.

 

(Yes, I know....)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Loddon said:

There were 6 Duker motor barges built originally not including the Iris Abbot which was built for a different company.

Paradine

Parbella

Parcastle

Parderry

Parelia

Parfield

 

So you see the logic now.

I have an article written by Roger on the 50th anniversary  detailing the original history of them but cant put it up here due to copyright.

I think it was the spot that was being referred to

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.