emergency services and what3words

[jetzi]

7 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think you have to pay for OS maps as well.

I've said this a couple of times now, but just so we're clear, we're not really talking about payment when it comes to "free"ness. We're talking about freedom as in freedom of speech, as in a public good, as in ownership of intellectual property. It's tangentially related because if a standard is free as in freedom it is also by default free as in price.

 

What3words owns the addresses that it gives you, allowing them to do whatever they want with them, including revoking your right to use it at any time.

 

Hence why what3words won't allow canalplan.eu to store the 3 word address in their system - canalplan.eu does not own the addresses therefore they may not use them without the express permission of what3words. That's why @StephenA said "odd, they don't let us cache the addresses". What3words cannot allow this because it would allow people to circumvent their system when finding those addresses. The next thing canalplan.eu should have said is "that's some BS, screw those guys, we won't include them in our system." Unfortunately they didn't.

 

Their ultimate goal is to make mapping depend on their service, which it is headed towards, if clueless agencies like the UK emergency services adopt them. And services like canalplan.eu, who frankly should know better.

 

Fortunately the severe flaws of what3words, such as poor internationalisation support, lack of real utility over free alternatives and the fact that they require a centralised system to interpret them should hopefully work together to retard their growth.

[jetzi]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

when people say that the W3W will give you where the doorway to the building is, I may be somewhat dubious. I would suggest that if the algorithm is calculating the code within your phone an 9 foot squares but the accuracy of the GPS signal is 40 feet, there is every possibility that if you check 'current position' it will give you one set of words and if you immediately check it again it could well give you another set of words.

Yes, it will be a different set of words. Every different set of GPS coordinates more than 3m apart will give you a different set of words.

 

You're giving what3words far too much credit.

 

All they are is a system for converting GPS coordinates to words. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

If you don't have the GPS coords, you can't get the 3 words.

 

Every GPS coordinate maps to those 3 words, using their carefully guarded algorithm. The app, website, and all the fluff is all irrelevant.

 

And they are most welcome to market all of that, and you guys are all welcome to use all that fluff if you find it useful. I have no problem with their app, or with their "squares". The problem I have is with the standard itself being controlled by what3words ltd.

Edited August 26, 2019 by ivan&alice

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

Yes, it will be a different set of words. Every different set of GPS coordinates more than 3m apart will give you a different set of words.

 

You're giving what3words far too much credit.

 

All they are is a system for converting GPS coordinates to words. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

If you don't have the GPS coords, you can't get the 3 words.

 

Every GPS coordinate maps to those 3 words, using their carefully guarded algorithm. The app, website, and all the fluff is all irrelevant.

 

And they are most welcome to market all of that, and you guys are all welcome to use all that fluff if you find it useful. I have no problem with their app, or with their "squares". The problem I have is with the standard itself being controlled by what3words ltd.

I think we are more or less on the same page with this. I'm not giving W3W credit for anything, I'm aware of what they are trying to do and am happy to use them....or not. As has happened with Microsoft Office, where once you bought the disc and 'owned' the result on your computer after you had created all of your documents in Word, etc, they then decided that you would no longer 'own' anything but would have to pay an annual subscription to access the documents you had previously created. This is clearly the future hope of W3W when you wont be able to get a parcel delivery without it, no takeaway food delivery without it, emergency services will expect you to have it, Uber taxis wont come unless you have it, and a whole host of other 'expectations' they will then be able to monetise their investment, and by then there will be nothing you can do about it, you either comply or will be denied a whole host of other services. I already see this on Facebook (which I have pointedly refused to join) whereby you log into a whole host of other unrelated sites through Facebook, the sole purpose of which is to gather more information about you and your interests and biases. From the consumer perspective this is 'convenient but from the Facebook perspective this is money!!

Edited August 26, 2019 by Wanderer Vagabond

[StephenA]

1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

I've said this a couple of times now, but just so we're clear, we're not really talking about payment when it comes to "free"ness. We're talking about freedom as in freedom of speech, as in a public good, as in ownership of intellectual property. It's tangentially related because if a standard is free as in freedom it is also by default free as in price.

 

What3words owns the addresses that it gives you, allowing them to do whatever they want with them, including revoking your right to use it at any time.

 

Hence why what3words won't allow canalplan.eu to store the 3 word address in their system - canalplan.eu does not own the addresses therefore they may not use them without the express permission of what3words. That's why @StephenA said "odd, they don't let us cache the addresses". What3words cannot allow this because it would allow people to circumvent their system when finding those addresses. The next thing canalplan.eu should have said is "that's some BS, screw those guys, we won't include them in our system." Unfortunately they didn't.

 

Their ultimate goal is to make mapping depend on their service, which it is headed towards, if clueless agencies like the UK emergency services adopt them. And services like canalplan.eu, who frankly should know better.

 

Fortunately the severe flaws of what3words, such as poor internationalisation support, lack of real utility over free alternatives and the fact that they require a centralised system to interpret them should hopefully work together to retard their growth.

What I actually said was:

 

Quote

However getting an agreement from W3W was a bit messy as we cache "static" data and they don't like people doing that... which seems odd as surely a place can't change its W3W code....

 

We got an agreement from them that we could cache their data for a limited time rather than having to call their API for each and every page load. We refresh all the canalplan caches in the background and set it up accordingly.

 

We added W3W because we had several people asking us if we could add it for various reasons. We then talked to W3W directly about their API and call rates and caching and came to the agreement we currently have with them.

 

If things change with them then we will simply pull the plugin and purge the data but leave the rest of the Geo location data in there.

 

When Google started charging us for map usage we dropped Googlemaps and implemented open maps.

When Google got unreasonable with their demands for their SSO we dropped that from our list of SSO providers.

 

If things change with W3W or Facebook or any other external service we use which means it no longer works for us then we will drop them.

[jetzi]

1 minute ago, StephenA said:

We got an agreement from them that we could cache their data for a limited time rather than having to call their API for each and every page load. We refresh all the canalplan caches in the background and set it up accordingly.

 

We added W3W because we had several people asking us if we could add it for various reasons. We then talked to W3W directly about their API and call rates and caching and came to the agreement we currently have with them.

 

If things change with them then we will simply pull the plugin and purge the data but leave the rest of the Geo location data in there.

 

When Google started charging us for map usage we dropped Googlemaps and implemented open maps.

When Google got unreasonable with their demands for their SSO we dropped that from our list of SSO providers.

 

If things change with W3W or Facebook or any other external service we use which means it no longer works for us then we will drop them.

I shouldn't criticise. Canalplan is fantastic, and I appreciate what you have done. I understand that demand for what3words is the reason you added it.

 

I believe that what3words are already unreasonable with their demands, being that they demand sole ownership and control of the standard. This is reason enough to avoid them.

 

Canalplan.eu may disagree, and that is your choice.

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

As has happened with Microsoft Office, where once you bought the disc and 'owned' the result on your computer after you had created all of your documents in Word, etc, they then decided that you would no longer 'own' anything but would have to pay an annual subscription to access the documents you had previously created.

Off topic I know, but are you aware that you can still buy Office 2010 which requires no subscription?  It’s what I use. 

 

It’s now unsupported but it still works just fine. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by WotEver
Added a bit

[BruceinSanity]

8 hours ago, StephenA said:

If things change with them then we will simply pull the plugin and purge the data but leave the rest of the Geo location data in there.

 

When Google started charging us for map usage we dropped Googlemaps and implemented open maps.

When Google got unreasonable with their demands for their SSO we dropped that from our list of SSO providers.

 

If things change with W3W or Facebook or any other external service we use which means it no longer works for us then we will drop them.

Since I can’t see a scenario in which w3w has complete dominance of geolocation services, this seems to me to be the answer to ivan&alice’s objections. I too resolutely avoid facesquid and I believe that sooner or later legislation will emerge to restrict their growing monopoly.

[Jim Riley]

Eyup, seen various comments about the OP. 

Last time I posted about it I gave more reasons about why, one of which is its easier to tell someone 3 words than a string of numbers, less room for error. I've just told my daughter ///heavy. Yours. Carry so she can find me today. 

Besides, it being canalworld it keeps everyone happy. Some because they have learned something, others, the old grumpfuttocks, are happy with something newfangled to criticise. Win win! 

[Richard10002]

9 hours ago, WotEver said:

Off topic I know, but are you aware that you can still buy Office 2010 which requires no subscription?  It’s what I use. 

 

It’s now unsupported but it still works just fine. 

Had a look at Office 2010, but a couple of sites where it can be downloaded kept telling me that someone had just bought it - "Fred from Bognor has just purchased", and the like. Always makes me a bit suspicious of where stuff is coming from.

 

Office Home & Student is a one off payment of £120..... I never use what it doesn't have, so considering it seriously.

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, Jim Riley said:

I've just told my daughter ///heavy. Yours. Carry so she can find me today. 

Is she bringing you beer or new batteries?  That's exactly what MrsBiscuit says to me but it's not so I can find the boat!

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

Had a look at Office 2010, but a couple of sites where it can be downloaded kept telling me that someone had just bought it - "Fred from Bognor has just purchased", and the like. Always makes me a bit suspicious of where stuff is coming from.

 

Office Home & Student is a one off payment of £120..... I never use what it doesn't have, so considering it seriously.

I bought my copy here:

https://softwarekeep.co.uk/microsoft-office/office-2010/

 

I’ve had it installed for a couple of years now with no problems. I phoned them prior to purchase to enquire how legitimate they were and although I can’t recall the exact conversation they obviously must have reassured me. I installed, entered the PID and away it went. It doesn’t include Outlook 2010 so I purchased that separately. 

[jetzi]

Before you spend your money, check out Libre Office: https://www.libreoffice.org/

 

It's a FLOSS office suite. Can do pretty much anything MS Office can do. No licencing required. It's regularly updated. And it's free. (Actually free).

[Jerra]

Having ploughed my way through this thread a couple of thought cross my mind (I know it doesn't take long).

 

1.  As somebody possibly Tumshie said early on, its a choice its there to use if you like it/want it/need it.  If not just ignore it.

 

2.  It must have something going for it, I saw a fairly high ranking Police Office on TV pushing its use and saying how helpful it was to them.  Before somebody asks I think it was Look North on TV

[jetzi]

5 minutes ago, Jerra said:

As somebody possibly Tumshie said early on, its a choice its there to use if you like it/want it/need it.  If not just ignore it.

Agreed on not using it if you have a problem with it. Disagree on "ignore it". It's an actively destructive thing. I'll not ignore it any more than I'll not ignore crimes, social injustices etc. I will speak out against it so that people can educate themselves, so as to understand why they should not use it nor encourage its use. I'm not bothered if that makes me a grumpfuttock.

[Jerra]

45 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Agreed on not using it if you have a problem with it. Disagree on "ignore it". It's an actively destructive thing. I'll not ignore it any more than I'll not ignore crimes, social injustices etc. I will speak out against it so that people can educate themselves, so as to understand why they should not use it nor encourage its use. I'm not bothered if that makes me a grumpfuttock.

So the police are actively encouraging a destructive thing.   You have informed various police HQs of this?

[tree monkey]

13 minutes ago, Jerra said:

So the police are actively encouraging a destructive thing.   You have informed various police HQs of this?

I have some sympathy with I&A here, W3W seems like a cracking idea and I can see the advantage to emergency services and others, but apparently the software is proprietary and not open source.

Once it becomes universal or at least adopted by the emergency services see how fast it is before they charge, by then it's too late.

Maybe I'm paranoid, maybe not

[Jerra]

Just now, tree monkey said:

I have some sympathy with I&A here, W3W seems like a cracking idea and I can see the advantage to emergency services and others, but apparently the software is proprietary and not open source.

Once it becomes universal or at least adopted by the emergency services see how fast it is before they charge, by then it's too late.

Maybe I'm paranoid, maybe not

There are masses of things in life we pay for I see no reason why eventually W3W shouldn't become subscription.  Then Like all businesses it will sink or swim on how many folk find it useful enough to pay for.

 

Why do we currently as a society have this aversion to something starting free and then becoming pay for.  It is like anything else you make the decision on what the thing is worth to you.  Until very recently I didn't pay for data on a phone as my phone couldn't use it.  The same IMO with W3W if it is useful and worth whatever fee is charged you will choose to pay if not you will stop using it.  Nobody will be forcing anybody grid refs and Lat& long will still be there if wanted.

[tree monkey]

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

There are masses of things in life we pay for I see no reason why eventually W3W shouldn't become subscription.  Then Like all businesses it will sink or swim on how many folk find it useful enough to pay for.

 

Why do we currently as a society have this aversion to something starting free and then becoming pay for.  It is like anything else you make the decision on what the thing is worth to you.  Until very recently I didn't pay for data on a phone as my phone couldn't use it.  The same IMO with W3W if it is useful and worth whatever fee is charged you will choose to pay if not you will stop using it.  Nobody will be forcing anybody grid refs and Lat& long will still be there if wanted.

Because we have a system that although flawed it's free.

 

Plus of course any additional cost to emergency services are costs to us all

 

Your and my decision to use a mobile with a paid for data package is a choice.

 

I like the concept, just don't trust the motives

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Because we have a system that although flawed it's free.

 

Plus of course any additional cost to emergency services are costs to us all

 

Your and my decision to use a mobile with a paid for data package is a choice.

 

I like the concept, just don't trust the motives

The choice to use W3W is equally a choice if emergency services have chosen to use it already (and I think I am correct in saying it already costs them) then they have clearly weighed up the pros and cons and decided it is worth it.  Presumably if in the future the public cease to use it they will find the emergency services no longer use it and stop paying the annual fee.

 

If it were my business model I would leave it free to individuals and sell licences to those who will use it a lot.

[Graham Davis]

1 hour ago, tree monkey said:

I have some sympathy with I&A here, W3W seems like a cracking idea and I can see the advantage to emergency services and others, but apparently the software is proprietary and not open source.

Once it becomes universal or at least adopted by the emergency services see how fast it is before they charge, by then it's too late.

Maybe I'm paranoid, maybe not

So is OS Mapping, so is that wrong as well?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

17 hours ago, WotEver said:

Off topic I know, but are you aware that you can still buy Office 2010 which requires no subscription?  It’s what I use. 

 

It’s now unsupported but it still works just fine. 

Does it however run on Windows 10? (another Microsoft programme dumped upon me). I have found one current work-around and use WPS Office but they are now constantly asking if I wish to 'upgrade' to their paid for programme so I suspect it will be only a matter of time before theirs become subscription only and I have to move onto something else.

[tree monkey]

4 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

So is OS Mapping, so is that wrong as well?

Nope but as been pointed out the base information W3W is based on is free, OS use the same but don't hide the information behind their own algorithm.

Anyway this is not my particular area of knowledge and I carn't really be faffed with the full 30min argument

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

There are masses of things in life we pay for I see no reason why eventually W3W shouldn't become subscription.  Then Like all businesses it will sink or swim on how many folk find it useful enough to pay for.

 

Why do we currently as a society have this aversion to something starting free and then becoming pay for.  It is like anything else you make the decision on what the thing is worth to you.  Until very recently I didn't pay for data on a phone as my phone couldn't use it.  The same IMO with W3W if it is useful and worth whatever fee is charged you will choose to pay if not you will stop using it.  Nobody will be forcing anybody grid refs and Lat& long will still be there if wanted.

I think the objection lies in where something goes from being useful and free, to be indispensable and paid for, you become dependent upon the supplier. At the moment there is the choice to use W3W or not whatever your choice may be. 5 or so years down the road, if their business plan works and it becomes the standard navigation system for the general public you will be unable to get deliveries without it, tradesmen will need it to find you, emergency services will be demanding it and so on. Opting out of it then becomes a whole lot more difficult.

[Jerra]

11 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I think the objection lies in where something goes from being useful and free, to be indispensable and paid for, you become dependent upon the supplier. At the moment there is the choice to use W3W or not whatever your choice may be. 5 or so years down the road, if their business plan works and it becomes the standard navigation system for the general public you will be unable to get deliveries without it, tradesmen will need it to find you, emergency services will be demanding it and so on. Opting out of it then becomes a whole lot more difficult.

Can you really see it becoming the standard navigation system to the exclusion of all others?  I can't!   However if we took that attitude to progress many things would never have become common.  Take the mobile phone as an example it is automatically assumed you have one, keep your eyes open for the number of signs which say "pay with your phone" with no other method suggested.

 

Should we have avoided using mobile phones because they were going to draw people into the expense of a smart phone and data package?

[Lily Rose]

8 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I think the objection lies in where something goes from being useful and free, to be indispensable and paid for, you become dependent upon the supplier. At the moment there is the choice to use W3W or not whatever your choice may be. 5 or so years down the road, if their business plan works and it becomes the standard navigation system for the general public you will be unable to get deliveries without it, tradesmen will need it to find you, emergency services will be demanding it and so on. Opting out of it then becomes a whole lot more difficult.

I think it is highly unlikely Royal Mail will switch from postcodes to W3W, no matter how successful the latter becomes. Given that, I also think it highly unlikely that other organisations would switch away from using postcodes in order to use W3W exclusively. More likely is that they would use both systems side by side, with W3W being useful when a precise location is needed. 

 

21 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Does it however run on Windows 10? (another Microsoft programme dumped upon me). I have found one current work-around and use WPS Office but they are now constantly asking if I wish to 'upgrade' to their paid for programme so I suspect it will be only a matter of time before theirs become subscription only and I have to move onto something else.

I'm still running Office 2000 (and Quicken 2000) on Windows 10. No problems so far.