emergency services and what3words

[Lily Rose]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Isn't this sort of mutually exclusive? Either it needs a phone signal, or it doesn't, and I've yet to find out how it works without a phone signal. I'm not saying it doesn't but having been on the site I cannot find out how it will give you a location if you haven't got a connection to it. The only way I could see that happening is if it downloaded all of the location data from the world onto your mobile, and I suspect that might be quite a lot of data. In fairness I've been going onto the site from a laptop (I don't have a smartphone) but when we have a signal as rubbish as I've got at my current location, it takes forever for a recognisable map to come up on the website to be able to select a location on it. When I did eventually get a map up, I looked up a location that I am aware of, the three words were costs.bump.seat which gives a location on the outskirts of London, however very similar words cost.bump.seat gives a location in Sussex and costs,bumps,seat gives you a location in Illinois,USA.

 

The cynic in me would also think that if the company could get everyone using the system, that would be the point at which they would monetise it (as Google maps seem to have done)

 

It's not mutually exclusive at all.

 

(a) is GPS

(b) is a mobile phone signal

(c) is internet access

 

If I turn off (a) and (c) off the app won't work as it tells me I'm offline. I still have a mobile phone signal but as it doesn't appear to use that it still tells me I'm offline. So it would not matter if I didn't have a mobile signal as it is not being used. 

 

When I turn (a) back on the app no longer tells me I'm offline and it displays the 3 word location. It also shows me a map even though I have wi-fi and data turned off but I suspect this is because the map is still in my phone's cache from when I used it earlier to record tonight's mooring location.

 

The upshot appears to be that all the app requires to generate the 3 words is (a).

 

It seems to be the case that either (b), with data turned on, or (c) is needed to generate a map but you still get the 3 words even if all you have is (a) I.e. GPS.

 

 

 

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

39 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

 

It's not mutually exclusive at all.

 

(a) is GPS

(b) is a mobile phone signal

(c) is internet access

 

If I turn off (a) and (c) off the app won't work as it tells me I'm offline. I still have a mobile phone signal but as it doesn't appear to use that it still tells me I'm offline. So it would not matter if I didn't have a mobile signal as it is not being used. 

 

When I turn (a) back on the app no longer tells me I'm offline and it displays the 3 word location. It also shows me a map even though I have wi-fi and data turned off but I suspect this is because the map is still in my phone's cache from when I used it earlier to record tonight's mooring location.

 

The upshot appears to be that all the app requires to generate the 3 words is (a).

 

It seems to be the case that either (b), with data turned on, or (c) is needed to generate a map but you still get the 3 words even if all you have is (a) I.e. GPS.

 

 

 

 

Having tried some background reading into this it would seem that what you download when you download the App is a fixed algorithm that converts the Lat/Long co-ordinates into the three words, so yes all you need is a GPS signal to do so. Since there are 57 trillion 3 x 3 metres squares on the planet, it did seem unlikely that all of that information would get downloaded onto your mobile. I don't know how it (incorrectly) calculated my current position when I tried the website since I'm operating through a laptop and mobile phone dongle which I don't think is GPS enabled (whenever I've clicked on a website that asks if it can use my current location, the results have often been quite bizarre, giving me as being in a location where I am no-where near).

 

As an auxiliary means of navigation it seems OK to me, but of limited value to those of us with no GPS facility on our laptops/mobiles. For me it is as easy to bring up my Lat/Long from a website ( https://www.latlong.net/ ) and cut and paste it into Google mapping as it would be to try to bring up my location in the google mapping of What3Words.

 

As I said earlier though, my cynical head says that if the company concerned could get everyone signed up to the concept, it would not be long before it became a subscription service because the earning potential would be enormous. Once you've signed up for an account you are then generating data for them to be able to sell (think Google, Facebook, etc), I'll use it on the rare occasions that I feel that I want to (I put a shortcut onto my computer when this topic first same up about a year ago, and until reading this thread, had never used it since) but I'll keep all other options open (OSGR, Lat/Long,etc.etc)

[Lily Rose]

Well I suppose there's a chance it will become subscription only in the future but you could say that about just about any app and therefore not use any of them.

 

I'll keep it on my phone just in case I ever need it and if it does ever go subscription only I would take a view on whether or not to keep it. Probably academic though as going subscription only would probably kill it off. Then I'd go back to using other methods of identifying where we are moored as I did before becoming aware of W3W.

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Having tried some background reading into this it would seem that what you download when you download the App is a fixed algorithm that converts the Lat/Long co-ordinates into the three words, so yes all you need is a GPS signal to do so. Since there are 57 trillion 3 x 3 metres squares on the planet, it did seem unlikely that all of that information would get downloaded onto your mobile. I don't know how it (incorrectly) calculated my current position when I tried the website since I'm operating through a laptop and mobile phone dongle which I don't think is GPS enabled (whenever I've clicked on a website that asks if it can use my current location, the results have often been quite bizarre, giving me as being in a location where I am no-where near).

 

If you are using a mobile phone (with GPS capability) then the app can find your location by GPS alone, and I understand the algorithm can convert that to three words without needing a data connection.

If you are using a mobile phone as a hotspot/dongle for a laptop, then I don't think the laptop can use the phone's GPS capability, and thus you may well get an erroneous location.

 

The phone app can display your location on a google map either if it can download the map data (via the mobile phoen datat connection), or if the map data is already available for offline use. So if you are in the habit of going into the Scottish wilderness, it might be good idea to download the relevant areas of the google map beforehand while you have a data connection (either mobile data or wifi).

 

The phone app can only communicate your location to soemone else if you have a data connection.

[Lily Rose]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

 

The phone app can only communicate your location to soemone else if you have a data connection.

 

Are you sure?

 

When I was playing about with the Share feature one of the many options that came up was SMS. That requires a mobile phone signal but not data.

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

If you are using a mobile phone (with GPS capability) then the app can find your location by GPS alone, and I understand the algorithm can convert that to three words without needing a data connection.

If you are using a mobile phone as a hotspot/dongle for a laptop, then I don't think the laptop can use the phone's GPS capability, and thus you may well get an erroneous location.

 

The phone app can display your location on a google map either if it can download the map data (via the mobile phoen datat connection), or if the map data is already available for offline use. So if you are in the habit of going into the Scottish wilderness, it might be good idea to download the relevant areas of the google map beforehand while you have a data connection (either mobile data or wifi).

 

The phone app can only communicate your location to soemone else if you have a data connection.

I probably didn't explain clearly, all I have is a laptop and a dongle, no mobile phone; I don't think that the dongle alone has GPS capability, which is why I wondered how it had picked up an erroneous location. I'm guessing it locates me where the internet server is.

[David Mack]

26 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

 

Are you sure?

 

When I was playing about with the Share feature one of the many options that came up was SMS. That requires a mobile phone signal but not data.

 

 Yes. you need a phone signal or data connection, depending on which communication method you are using.

[Richard10002]

32 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 Yes. you need a phone signal or data connection, depending on which communication method you are using.

If you are going to communicate with anyone, including your rescuers, you need at least a phone signal, and data would be handy if you are going to provide a location with any accuracy, although some would be able to establish it with an OS map or similar - I know lots of people who couldnt. 

 

 

[Lily Rose]

8 hours ago, David Mack said:

 Yes. you need a phone signal or data connection, depending on which communication method you are using.

 

I agree you need one or the other but the reason I queried it is that you said you need a data signal, no mention of phone signal. The latter is all you need to send an SMS so data is not really needed. It is useful though as the map you then get can be used to check the location shown is correct.

 

it's probably all a bit moot though as if you have a phone signal then you can switch data on.

 

Of course you need a phone signal to call the emergency services anyway, knowing where you are is not a lot of use if you can't make contact with anyone. 

 

On the other hand, it is still possible to use a smartphone to establish where you are as long as you can get a GPS signal and I suspect the absence of GPS is far less likely than the absence of a phone signal. Without a map you have to trust it is giving you the correct location. So far, every time I have used it has done so, broadly speaking. Sometimes it hasn't been exact but it has always been very close, for example showing a position in the middle of the canal rather than the towpath but that is good enough for someone to find you.

 

If you have established where you are but have no phone signal you need some way to summon help. I always carry a cheap spare (non-smart) phone on a different network. Being a dumbphone it tends to get better reception and being on a different network it will often get a signal when the smartphone doesn't. In any case, I believe if you can't get a signal on your own network you may still be able to call 999 as it uses any available network.

 

Failing that, just walking down the towpath, or along a road, may get a signal or there may be a property nearby where the alarm can be raised. 

 

In such circumstances, W3W would still have proved useful because you are able to pass on accurate location information for the boat (or car in a ditch or person who has had a bad fall or whatever).

 

And for this reason, I am in.

 

 

 

[Keeping Up]

Even if you are "down" with no phone signal, you could write the 3 words on a piece of paper and find a way of delivering it (send somebody, send the dog or a carrier pigeon, put it in a bottle, etc). I believe that concept was part of the design brief.

[Lily Rose]

10 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

Even if you are "down" with no phone signal, you could write the 3 words on a piece of paper and find a way of delivering it (send somebody, send the dog or a carrier pigeon, put it in a bottle, etc). I believe that concept was part of the design brief.

Paper aeroplane?

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

Paper aeroplane?

That's only two words! 

[Lily Rose]

36 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

That's only two words! 

 

I never could count very well without Excel. Since I've retired I've almost forgotten how to use it.

[jetzi]

I'm very anti-what3words.

 

Having a private company be in charge of addressing the world, with a proprietary algorithm that they charge (certain users) to use, is language-specific, and requires non-free/libre apps to be downloaded onto devices, especially relating to location based services, is a very, very dangerous situation to be promoting. Also, the addresses don't relate to each other in any way - is selfish.private.company to the east or west of dumb.unneeded.idea? How far apart are they?

 

What's wrong with latitude and longitude? It's easy to understand, are easy to relate to each other, works in all languages, and can be arbitrarily precise. Works without any non-free algorithm using GPS and GLONASS satellites.

 

As to the "more the merrier" location standards, I don't agree with that one bit. What's better, to train emergency service personnel and the public in one existing system or in fifty? I can't entertain the thought that emergency services wouldn't understand a GPS coordinate.

 

We have a good system that has been around for years, we don't need what3words.

[Richard10002]

7 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I'm very anti-what3words.

 

Having a private company be in charge of addressing the world, with a proprietary algorithm that they charge (certain users) to use, is language-specific, and requires non-free/libre apps to be downloaded onto devices, especially relating to location based services, is a very, very dangerous situation to be promoting. Also, the addresses don't relate to each other in any way - is selfish.private.company to the east or west of dumb.unneeded.idea? How far apart are they?

 

What's wrong with latitude and longitude? It's easy to understand, are easy to relate to each other, works in all languages, and can be arbitrarily precise. Works without any non-free algorithm using GPS and GLONASS satellites.

 

As to the "more the merrier" location standards, I don't agree with that one bit. What's better, to train emergency service personnel and the public in one existing system or in fifty? I can't entertain the thought that emergency services wouldn't understand a GPS coordinate.

 

We have a good system that has been around for years, we don't need what3words.

I can think of lots of people who, if you asked what their lat. and long. was, would have no idea, and no idea how to find it.

 

They would have to describe their location in terms of what they can see around them, or similar.

 

I've just looked at Google Maps on my phone and can find no way of identifying my lat and long, nor my OS grid coordinates, (they might be there, but I cant find them.

 

In my browser, I googled "What Three Words", clicked on the second link down, (the top one was the actual app), and within 2 clicks have my 3 words.

 

I also googled "my current position", and not quite as easily, found my lat and long.

 

If I was the paramedic, I would find it easier to talk someone through finding their three words, than anything else I know of.

 

If they try to monetise the app by charging users, that would be stupid as it would fail. They will be looking for another way.... which could be advertising, or building up a following, and selling to a big company for millions or billions...... Google or Bing or similar might buy them?

 

For the time being it's a useful thing which you don't have to use

 

[Phil Ambrose]

All this "yes it's good" " no it's not" is pointless. Having another string to your bow must be a good thing.

Phil

[jetzi]

2 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I can think of lots of people who, if you asked what their lat. and long. was, would have no idea, and no idea how to find it.

True, but I can think of lots more people who would have no idea what what3words is nor how to find it.

 

So which is better, teach people the existing system or throw the baby out with the bathwater and create a new system?

 

3 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I've just looked at Google Maps on my phone and can find no way of identifying my lat and long, nor my OS grid coordinates, (they might be there, but I cant find them.

That's a failing of Google Maps, not of coordinates themselves. There are plenty of apps available (free ones - really free not the "free" that what3words is) that will provide your GPS coordinates. If you advocate downloading a specific app (and it has to be what3words' app, or one they approve, because they own the rights to it) then why not advocate downloading one that provides GPS coordinates?

 

 

6 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

If they try to monetise the app by charging users, that would be stupid as it would fail. They will be looking for another way.... which could be advertising, or building up a following, and selling to a big company for millions or billions...... Google or Bing or similar might buy them?

They already monetise by charging particularly heavy users of their API. I don't know if they exempt the emergency services, but they would be an example of a heavy user. The consumer always pays in the end, whether it is through taxes, through higher prices of services, or through their own personal data. I find What3words Inc. taking their pound of flesh abhorrent, considering their idea and algorithm is quite simple and could be easily made available for free, like GPS is.

A good maxim whenever you get something for free: "If you aren't paying, you're not the customer, you're the product". I wish more people understood this.

[jetzi]

6 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

All this "yes it's good" " no it's not" is pointless. Having another string to your bow must be a good thing.

Phil

But it ISN'T.

 

I can quite easily come up with a "what4words" sytem, I'll do it for you right now. I'll use 4 words so it will add an extra useful property that addresses a common criticism of what3words, that similar addresses are intentionally distant.

1. Take the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 2019 edition.
2. Number the words from -180 to 10 000 (however long the dictionary is). (the first word, say Aardvark, being number -180)

3. Take your GPS position to 4 decimal places, so 9.1234,-123.1234, which is accurate up to 11m.

4. Split the coordinates into four parts, latwhole, latfraction, longwhole, longfraction.

5. Create the what4words address by taking each part's word, so the 9th word, the 1234th word, the -123rd word and the 1234th word again.

 

You'll get something like bridge.grumpy.apple.grumpy.

 

There's another string, lets add it to the bow. It must be a good thing right? Let's teach our kids all three standards now. The more the merrier. And look, we'll even have the public do this company's advertising for free. This is not a genius invention, this is a simple encoding that does not deserve a patent and to make its three founders rich by controlling access to it.

 

If what3words was a consortium of people trying to create a new, better, open standard that had the input of emergency services and other people who depend on quick and easy to communicate locations, then I would not be so opposed, I still think that GPS is better but at least this is a free, open standard. The problem is that this "string to the bow" is controlled entirely by people behind closed doors. These people should NOT dictate how we use something as basic as location. It's evil.

 

You might not consider it a problem to have critical services hijacked by a private, for-profit company, but I do. Every second spent evangelising and training people on the virtues of what3words is a second that could have been spent evangelising and training people on the existing, sufficient, easy system that is GPS.

[Lily Rose]

4 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

 

That's a failing of Google Maps, not of coordinates themselves. There are plenty of apps available (free ones - really free not the "free" that what3words is) that will provide your GPS coordinates. If you advocate downloading a specific app (and it has to be what3words' app, or one they approve, because they own the rights to it) then why not advocate downloading one that provides GPS coordinates?
 

I've had two apps on my phone for lat and long for a couple of years. On more than one occasion they have provided different results so I did not know which, if either, was correct. I failed to find a way to get these on a map/satellite image in order to check.

 

What I like about W3W is that the result shows you both of these so you can easily double-check if it's correct and also adjust it by dragging and dropping if it's out a little.

 

I'm not saying you don't have a point about ownership, about monetisation, about the profit motive, the fact that lat and long already exists etc etc.

 

However, none of this would be any consolation to me in an emergency situation where help was delayed or worse because I did not have the W3W app on my phone. So I've downloaded it just in case it comes in useful one day. 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

I have a 2x  GPS on the boat.

I have a plotter on the boat (that gives my GPS position over-layed onto the charts.

I have a hand-held GPS / navigator with GPS positioning onto OS mapping for the whole of the UK down to 1:10,000

My Watch has GPS on it.

My phone has GPS location and mapping on it.

Both SWMBO & I have PLB's (Personal Locator Beacon) that when activated (anywhere in the world - Land. Sea or Air) sends a signal to the satellite giving all your registered details and GPS location, The message is then related to the SAR team nearest to you. A helicopter / SAR team will be activated within 5 minutes of you 'pressing the button'.

 

I really don't want some weird 3-word system that (when I tried it) gave my location about 10 miles from where I actually was.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Richard10002]

3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

This is not a genius invention, this is a simple encoding that does not deserve a patent and to make its three founders rich by controlling access to it.

 

If what3words was a consortium of people trying to create a new, better, open standard that had the input of emergency services and other people who depend on quick and easy to communicate locations, then I would not be so opposed, I still think that GPS is better but at least this is a free, open standard. The problem is that this "string to the bow" is controlled entirely by people behind closed doors. These people should NOT dictate how we use something as basic as location. It's evil.

 

You might not consider it a problem to have critical services hijacked by a private, for-profit company, but I do. Every second spent evangelising and training people on the virtues of what3words is a second that could have been spent evangelising and training people on the existing, sufficient, easy system that is GPS.

 

Wouldn't your thinking apply to most things that we have come to rely on these days? Even a simple thing like the multiple servers that much mission critical info is stored on are in private ownership, (as far as I know). Banks, which hold and control all of our money?

[jetzi]

11 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

On more than one occasion they have provided different results so I did not know which, if either, was correct. I failed to find a way to get these on a map/satellite image in order to check.

GPS can be inaccurate, it's true. What3words however depends on GPS, so as a best case scenario it can only ever be as accurate as the underlying data it is based on. It could even be less accurate, and you wouldn't know (if you weren't able to check on a map for some reason) because the algorithm is completely opaque. If my phone told me I was at 10 degrees longitude, I'd know instantly it was wrong, because I'm in England. If my phone told me I was at smelly.tree.jealousy I would have no idea whether it was right or wrong.

 

The fact that you don't know how to get these on a map is just a matter of education. I don't know how to get what3words on a map, but I have no doubt it is pretty easy. (FWIW, you can enter coordinates directly into the search bar of every map app I've ever tried and it will take you straight there).

 

15 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

in an emergency situation where help was delayed or worse because I did not have the W3W app on my phone. So I've downloaded it just in case it comes in useful one day. 

Fair enough, and each to his own. If I'm ever in an emergency situation I'll dictate my GPS coordinates over the phone, I'll admit it is slightly more effort than three words. I hope that the responders were in class the day they did lat / lon training rather than the what3words training.

 

8 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Wouldn't your thinking apply to most things that we have come to rely on these days? Even a simple thing like the multiple servers that much mission critical info is stored on are in private ownership, (as far as I know). Banks, which hold and control all of our money?

Indeed it does!

I'm not sure what you're referring to w.r.t. mission critical information. I'd encourage people to avoid storing their email on Google, for example. Nor should one keep any significant amount of money in a bank. Ask the Greek.

[Richard10002]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have a 2x  GPS on the boat.

I have a plotter on the boat (that gives my GPS position over-layed onto the charts.

I have a hand-held GPS / navigator with GPS positioning onto OS mapping for the whole of the UK down to 1:10,000

My Watch has GPS on it.

My phone has GPS location and mapping on it.

Both SWMBO & I have PLB's (Personal Locator beacon) that when activated sends a signal to the satellite giving all your registered details and GPS location, The message is then related to the SAR team nearest to you. A helicopter / SAR team will be activated within 5 minutes of you 'pressing the button'.

 

I really don't want some weird 3-word system that (when I tried it) gave my location about 10 miles from where I actually was.

Not everybody travels the streets with their yacht on a trailer behind them  Nor do we have a PLB in our pocket or bag  And It doesnt really matter whether you have access to GPS, and how many gadgets give you that access. Like you say... if we have a smart phone, we almost certainly have access to GPS.

 

In terms of navigation, position finding, and survival, you have way more knowledge than most people. But this is about the ordinary Joe finding their position, and being able to translate it into something they can give to the emergency responder, (or house viewer), so they can find them.

 

 

What did you try it on to get your 10 mile error? I could guess that the error is more to do with the error in your GPS position, rather than the apps translation of it?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

(FWIW, you can enter coordinates directly into the search bar of every map app I've ever tried and it will take you straight there).

You can actually directly enter your co-ordinates into the Google search bar and it will take you there.

[Richard10002]

5 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I'm not sure what you're referring to w.r.t. mission critical information. I'd encourage people to avoid storing their email on Google, for example. Nor should one keep any significant amount of money in a bank. Ask the Greek.

Where do you suggest any significant amount of money is kept? Ask the guy who was held up at gunpoint and his safe robbed  

 

I don't know of any email storage system that isn't privately controlled, so it doesnt really matter whether it's Google or a particular domain name provider.

 

But that wasn't really what I was thinking of. I would guess that much government, bank, NHS, Utilities, stuff, is stored on privately owned servers.