emergency services and what3words

[1st ade]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

but the controller said they couldn't just take off and fly wherever they wanted, they must file a new flight plan - they eventually did take off and land in the correct place - it was fortunate really as the Land ambulance medics were not qualified to give the wife the treatment that she needed whilst the Heli-Doctor was, and because of that he had to accompany her in the Land ambulance to hospital so the Air-Ambulance was effectively grounded until the Doctor was able to leave the Hospital and re-join the Helicopter.

That's admin for you

 

That's why i waited for discharge in one ward of St Mary's hospital because my prescription for heart surgery (without which I couldn't leave hospital) was waiting in another ward. And why I got a letter the day after surgery to say my operation was cancelled...

 

[Don't take any of this as criticism of the NHS - they do a great job and I wouldn't be here without them]

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

Don't take any of this as criticism of the NHS - they do a great job and I wouldn't be here without them

They certainly do, and my wife probably wouldn't be here without the Heli-Doctor* AND A&E Resus team.

 

I know that the Heli is a charity and not the NHS and find it absurd that they have to fund themselves AND pay VAT on the fuel, because they own the Helicopter, whilst the Yorkshire Heli is leased so they don't have to pay fuel VAT.

 

In rural counties like Lincolnshire & Yorkshire (let alone Scotland and Wales) the land ambulance can take many, many (long) minutes (30?) to get out into the wilds.

 

We have had the Heli out about half-a-dozen times at the golf club as 'wrinklies' have heart attacks etc.

 

Landing on the 1st Tee

 

 

 

 

[Graham Davis]

We work closely with the Welsh Air Ambulance and the one thing they are categorical about is that they do NOT want to be funded directly by the Government. Being a (successful) charity means they have some autonomy that they know they would lose if they came under direct Government control.

And I'm not sure you are correct about the VAT. 

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

And I'm not sure you are correct about the VAT. 

In which way ?

 

They do pay VAT or they don't pay VAT or 'owned' pays VAT, or 'Leased' doesn't pay VAT ?

 

From the Government website :

 

In the United Kingdom, there are three operating models for air ambulance charities: 
 
 The ‘wet lease’ model – where charities contract with a third party provider to provide the aircraft and fuel;  The ‘dry lease’ model – where charities contract with a third party provider to provide the aircraft but not the fuel; and  The owner/operator model – where charities own and operate their own aircraft in partnership with another organisation or alone. 
 
Under the ‘wet lease’ model, air ambulance charities lease an air ambulance at the zero rate of VAT and as the fuel is part of that lease agreement, it forms part of the zero rated supply of an ambulance.  Air ambulance charities which operate this model are exempt from the scheme because they do not incur VAT on aviation fuel. 
 
Under the ‘dry lease’ model, some fuel purchased through the lease arrangement will be VAT exempt e.g. if the fuel is brought from the lessor under a separate contract and in accordance with that contract. Some air ambulance charities choose to source their fuel from elsewhere and do pay VAT. 
 
Under the owner/operator model, air ambulance charities pay VAT on purchases of aviation fuel because the provision of a free ambulance service is not a business activity.   
 
Air ambulance charities that operate under the owner/operator model or the dry lease model and are paying for VAT on fuel are eligible to make applications for grants under this scheme.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Jim Riley]

W3W is useful for other stuff too. My brother got a new house in Spain, sent me the 3 words, so easy to find. Helping a visitor find  your boat, could be useful. Etc etc. 

I really don't understand all the fuss about cost, or it being promoted. It's FREE to use. Anyway lads and the odd lass (do they have to be odd to be here?) getting your heads around all this new fangled technology will keep dementia at bay. It may be too late for some. ????

[1st ade]

11 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

W3W is useful for other stuff too

I don't have an issue with "the other stuff". I don't deny it has uses. What I object to is pushing themselves as "helping the emergency services" when those who are actually involved in the emergency services (BT, all four mobile networks, police, fire, ambulance, mountain rescue, coast guard, moor rescue etc - who actually understand both the technology and rescue) have done it all first and done it better - for a specific purpose; emergency rescue.

[ditchcrawler]

42 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

We work closely with the Welsh Air Ambulance and the one thing they are categorical about is that they do NOT want to be funded directly by the Government. Being a (successful) charity means they have some autonomy that they know they would lose if they came under direct Government control.

And I'm not sure you are correct about the VAT. 

Sounds a bit like the lifeboats

[Mike Todd]

Zero fate VAT is not the same as Exempt?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Zero fate VAT is not the same as Exempt?

Being VAT registered I am aware of that - you will note however that I actually 'said' :

 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I know that the Heli is a charity and not the NHS and find it absurd that they have to fund themselves AND pay VAT on the fuel, because they own the Helicopter, whilst the Yorkshire Heli is leased so they don't have to pay fuel VAT.

 

No mention of Zero rated, or, exempt.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Tumshie]

1 hour ago, 1st ade said:

I don't have an issue with "the other stuff". I don't deny it has uses. What I object to is pushing themselves as "helping the emergency services" when those who are actually involved in the emergency services (BT, all four mobile networks, police, fire, ambulance, mountain rescue, coast guard, moor rescue etc - who actually understand both the technology and rescue) have done it all first and done it better - for a specific purpose; emergency rescue.

I know very little about W3W and absolutely nothing about what goes on behind the scenes of an emergency call. May I ask you to explain this in a bit more detail, please.

 

From what I've read the police forces using this technology actively sought it out wanting to implement it, faze out the older system and change over to this new one. I'm not really understanding why this is and different from the police force kitting its self out nation wide with Land Rovers (and those lovely unmarked midnight blue Jags you used to see). Land Rover are a private company they provided a tool and a service and the police force paid for that service. I have no working experience in this field so anything I say on this thread can only be my opinion nothing more, but I'm interested why you believe so strongly that WTW are "pushing themselves" rather than it being a case of they offered to demonstrate their product and the person in charge of the budget saying yes I like that and I'll have one. ?

 

 

[1st ade]

31 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

I know very little about W3W and absolutely nothing about what goes on behind the scenes of an emergency call. May I ask you to explain this in a bit more detail, please.

 

From what I've read the police forces using this technology actively sought it out wanting to implement it, faze out the older system and change over to this new one. I'm not really understanding why this is and different from the police force kitting its self out nation wide with Land Rovers (and those lovely unmarked midnight blue Jags you used to see). Land Rover are a private company they provided a tool and a service and the police force paid for that service. I have no working experience in this field so anything I say on this thread can only be my opinion nothing more, but I'm interested why you believe so strongly that WTW are "pushing themselves" rather than it being a case of they offered to demonstrate their product and the person in charge of the budget saying yes I like that and I'll have one. ?

 

 

(contractually) the blue light services were involved (but didn't pay for) the AML (Advanced Mobile Location) service developed by BT. They had to pay for the equipment to receive the information (which they would for whatever service delivered a location) and were actively consulted over what was an acceptable error, how long it would take to get the info to them, what happened if the caller was in a gps black spot etc. AMR is being continually developed.

 

I've seen nothing directly from the emergency services praising W3W. I've seen plenty from W3W quoting police etc as "this is great" but that's from individual officers after a specific incident. A bit like those who say "well my cassette didn't overflow in the great freeze of 1963"

 

W3W may be great but I've seen no technical review of it's performance (say) if you give a location as you emerge from Harecastle Tunnel. I know (because I've seen the spec and test procedure) that the BT developed system will default to cell location because it knows the GPS is not to be trusted.

 

AML also does not rely on the caller speaking, or speaking English. The position is fed through without user interaction.

 

I should add I've no professional or commercial interest in either system; my direct experience is my father falling on the towpath by a public house and the operator asking me (without any help from my end) which end of the Galleon car park I was at!

[Onionman]

I've recommended our kids to have W3W on their phones for emergency use for some time.

My reasoning? They are never without their phones. The best technology is the one you're likely to have with you when you need it.

[Tumshie]

32 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

I've seen nothing directly from the emergency services praising W3W.

I haven't either really and I'm not sure that even something that they do, but there is this in the article from the BBC that I linked to earlier in this thread. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-47705912

 

Sam Sheppard, from Avon and Somerset Police, said: "Having this type of technology integrated within our command and control system has changed the way we are able to deal with incidents where the location isn't known. 

"We are moving away from the old style questioning - 'Where have you come from?', 'Where are you going?', 'What can you see?' et cetera." 

"These questions take time and aren't always that accurate. 

"Asking for a three word address or sending an SMS [text message] so they can easily provide their three-word address has meant we have saved valuable time locating incidents."

Chris Sheldrick, co-founder of what3words, said: "Being in need of urgent help and not being able to easily describe where you are can be very distressing for the person involved and a really difficult situation for emergency services. 

"Today, people nearly always have their phone on them. 

"We need to use the tools at our disposal to improve public services and potentially save lives."

He told BBC News the company was keen to get ambulance services around the UK using the system next.

It has previously been used at music festivals and for disaster relief.

 

 

36 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

I've seen plenty from W3W quoting police etc as "this is great" but that's from individual officers after a specific incident.

? Oh yes, Scottish Canals do this all the time. There was a big flood defence project in and around Inverness, loads of work was done round the River Ness and the Caley Canal; several organisation were involved including BW/SC who were told point blank this is what we are doing, this is what you will do and this is the extra funding that you will use to do it. The job was done and SC wrote a huge blog piece for the site singing how they as a body were responsible for all these miles of canals and that they regularly had to use their vast knowledge and skill to make difficult decisions for the good of the canals and with this budget that they manage so well.... blah blah blah.... and therefore this historic and well loved feature of the local environment.... blah blah blah. Don't get me wrong they did a fantastic job but oh boy did they ham it up for their own self promotion, if you weren't local and were reading that original post you would be very impressed but as a local you would read it and laugh your head off - I noticed a while back that there was a much more rounded account of what happen though still very self promoting. But I think that what they call marketing and is just the norm these days. 

 

 

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Being VAT registered I am aware of that - you will note however that I actually 'said' :

 

No mention of Zero rated, or, exempt.

No, I didn't mean to suggest that you did  but the website you cited does.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, 1st ade said:

(contractually) the blue light services were involved (but didn't pay for) the AML (Advanced Mobile Location) service developed by BT. They had to pay for the equipment to receive the information (which they would for whatever service delivered a location) and were actively consulted over what was an acceptable error, how long it would take to get the info to them, what happened if the caller was in a gps black spot etc. AMR is being continually developed.

 

I've seen nothing directly from the emergency services praising W3W. I've seen plenty from W3W quoting police etc as "this is great" but that's from individual officers after a specific incident. A bit like those who say "well my cassette didn't overflow in the great freeze of 1963"

 

W3W may be great but I've seen no technical review of it's performance (say) if you give a location as you emerge from Harecastle Tunnel. I know (because I've seen the spec and test procedure) that the BT developed system will default to cell location because it knows the GPS is not to be trusted.

 

AML also does not rely on the caller speaking, or speaking English. The position is fed through without user interaction.

 

I should add I've no professional or commercial interest in either system; my direct experience is my father falling on the towpath by a public house and the operator asking me (without any help from my end) which end of the Galleon car park I was at!

I wa very sceptical of this and until you can be sure the service you require use it then it could slow things down, but it seems its being used by more and more services all the time.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-21/u-k-police-are-using-three-words-to-speed-up-response-times

 

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2019-04-15/police-use-three-words-to-find-someones-exact-location/

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/what3words-app-cambridge-police-fire-16206756

https://www.emergencyuk.com/exhibitor-videos-1/case-study-what3words--uk-police#/

https://www.cambs.police.uk/news-and-appeals/what3words

https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/three-word-addresses-are-helping-first-responders-to-save-lives/

 

[WotEver]

I’m waiting for the time that W3W starts charging because as yet I can’t see a business model for them until they do. So... I’ll reserve judgment until that time. 

[Mike Todd]

17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I wa very sceptical of this and until you can be sure the service you require use it then it could slow things down, but it seems its being used by more and more services all the time.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-21/u-k-police-are-using-three-words-to-speed-up-response-times

 

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2019-04-15/police-use-three-words-to-find-someones-exact-location/

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/what3words-app-cambridge-police-fire-16206756

https://www.emergencyuk.com/exhibitor-videos-1/case-study-what3words--uk-police#/

https://www.cambs.police.uk/news-and-appeals/what3words

https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/three-word-addresses-are-helping-first-responders-to-save-lives/

 

I note from just a cursory glance at the web site that it makes use of Google maps and a third party (Google) address look up. Whilst W3W can make guarantees about what happens if they go bust, they cannot say the same about third parties who might also start to charge for their services. Similarly they are silent on what happens if they are bought out. I'd want to know whether they have found some bomb proof way of maintaining their independence (innocence)?

Edited June 23, 2019 by Mike Todd

[WotEver]

 

I used to use Photobox. I bought loads of things from them. Initially their photo storage was free, then they started charging for long term storage which seemed fair.  Then they told me that because I hadn’t used my print credits (which I’d paid for, in advance) within the allocated timeframe I had now lost them. That amounted to theft in my opinion and I shan’t go anywhere near that company now or ever and I use any opportunity to suggest to anyone who asks that there are plenty of other photo print companies around without using the sharks. I just wonder if W3W will follow a similar path. 

[ditchcrawler]

34 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I’m waiting for the time that W3W starts charging because as yet I can’t see a business model for them until they do. So... I’ll reserve judgment until that time. 

I came across one last night by accident. I went to  https://www.heavens-above.com/ to look up what the bright "star" was and they now have the facility to use What3words to give your position, I would guess that would require some sort of licence

[Richard10002]

27 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I note from just a cursory glance at the web site that it makes use of Google maps and a third party (Google) address look up. Whilst W3W can make guarantees about what happens if they go bust, they cannot say the same about third parties who might also start to charge for their services. Similarly they are silent on what happens if they are bought out. I'd want to know whether they have found some bomb proof way of maintaining their independence (innocence)?

It’s all very well being wary and suspicious, and not a bad thing where free web sites are concerned but, dont lots of sites use Google, none of whom are making guarantees if Google goes bust?

 

Why assume the worst of one particular site, tarring them with the brush of another unrelated site, when they might be biding their time until they can guarantee advertisers a big audience and monetise things in the usual way.

 

Facebook and Google remain free to use, as do many other sites. If Facebook started charging me, they would be gone at the drop of a hat, as would Google if they charged for searches.

 

If W3W start charging for a position, perhaps that is the time to dump and criticise them. At the moment, they seem to be providing something useful and, potentially, life saving.

[Tumshie]

56 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I’m waiting for the time that W3W starts charging because as yet I can’t see a business model for them until they do. So... I’ll reserve judgment until that time. 

They do charge. I'm not sure how much but they charge the businesses that use them and I'm pretty sure they will be charging the emergency services. 

 

https://what3words.com/pricing/

 

ETA - And they sell rather expensive sign with your W3W address on. ?

 

https://what3words.com/shop/

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Tumshie

[Graham Davis]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Thank you Alan, now I am better informed.

 

6 hours ago, 1st ade said:

I don't have an issue with "the other stuff". I don't deny it has uses. What I object to is pushing themselves as "helping the emergency services" when those who are actually involved in the emergency services (BT, all four mobile networks, police, fire, ambulance, mountain rescue, coast guard, moor rescue etc - who actually understand both the technology and rescue) have done it all first and done it better - for a specific purpose; emergency rescue.

I don't see they are "pushing themselves" when the Police and Ambulance services in some areas are making use of it.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

I’m waiting for the time that W3W starts charging because as yet I can’t see a business model for them until they do. So... I’ll reserve judgment until that time. 

A la 'photo-bucket'

 

get everyone using the 'free' service then either switch it off or charge "humungous" fees.

[Onionman]

3 hours ago, WotEver said:

I’m waiting for the time that W3W starts charging because as yet I can’t see a business model for them until they do. So... I’ll reserve judgment until that time. 

 

They charge business users.

Wyhy would they pay for it? Well, having been a courier for part of my life I can say that at some locations (Factories, office complexes, etc) you can easily spend ten minutes finding the spot you want. Their locations are 3M square (ten feet to those of you who stuck in the 1950s who object to metric) so you can have a W3W address for their front door.

[ditchcrawler]

26 minutes ago, Onionman said:

 

They charge business users.

Wyhy would they pay for it? Well, having been a courier for part of my life I can say that at some locations (Factories, office complexes, etc) you can easily spend ten minutes finding the spot you want. Their locations are 3M square (ten feet to those of you who stuck in the 1950s who object to metric) so you can have a W3W address for their front door.

Like our house, anywhere on a 3/4 mile long road