LPG piping to oven advice

[Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Really? Can you cite a rule stating a breach of PD54823 is cause to fail a BSS please? Much obliged. 

 

Oh, and does PD54823 actually state flexis may not be used to connect fixed appliances? I'm not that familiar with it. 

 

And finally, does a breach of GSIUR mean BSS failure too? 

 

Well that’s an interesting section. There are several occasions when a BSS will not comply with GSIUR and not only fail but also have the supply disconnected. The requirements for a BsS Cert on many vessels that are not in scope of GSIUR is simply compliance with the published ECPs applicable to that class of vessel. However where a vessel falls within scope of GSIUR, even if it complies with BSs ECPs it can be determined to be at risk or immediately dangerous. In which case the appropriate appendices of the. ads are acted upon and the GSR qualified examiner will follow the requirement of legislation and act accordingly. If you were a qualified BSS EXAMINER  who was also GSR to CCLP1-B you would know that. As you are asking the question I assume you don’t know it. The difference then is that I am qualified, you are (or appear) not to be so qualified. Plenty of closet experts. In the event of an insurance claim attitudes and attentions are sharply brought into focus. You keep giving good advice, I’ll keep getting paid for correcting the mistakes of those who ask and listen to the wrong people. My work is warranted, legally undertaken, fully insured and regularly re-certified. Is yours?

[MtB]

 

Bloody hell, was your degree at uni in obfuscation?

 

[nicknorman]

15 minutes ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

Well that’s an interesting section. There are several occasions when a BSS will not comply with GSIUR and not only fail but also have the supply disconnected. The requirements for a BsS Cert on many vessels that are not in scope of GSIUR is simply compliance with the published ECPs applicable to that class of vessel. However where a vessel falls within scope of GSIUR, even if it complies with BSs ECPs it can be determined to be at risk or immediately dangerous. In which case the appropriate appendices of the. ads are acted upon and the GSR qualified examiner will follow the requirement of legislation and act accordingly. If you were a qualified BSS EXAMINER  who was also GSR to CCLP1-B you would know that. As you are asking the question I assume you don’t know it. The difference then is that I am qualified, you are (or appear) not to be so qualified. Plenty of closet experts. In the event of an insurance claim attitudes and attentions are sharply brought into focus. You keep giving good advice, I’ll keep getting paid for correcting the mistakes of those who ask and listen to the wrong people. My work is warranted, legally undertaken, fully insured and regularly re-certified. Is yours?

From that massive piece of smokescreening I presume that you realise your error, but the fear of loss of face prevents you from admitting it.

[Tumshie]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Very sadly I’m guessing that you are. Perhaps you should go on a refresher course. 

 

https://www.canalpages.co.uk/listings/i-w-a-b-s-s-limited/

 

 

[nicknorman]

On reviewing what Steve actually said about flexi hoses, he said “should” not be used for fixed appliances. “Should not” of course means something along the lines of “not best practice”. As opposed to “Must not” or “shall not”. And I’m inclined to agree that for a fixed appliance it is better to use copper pipe (spiralled or whatever) because a flexi hose has a limited life, costs more, and doesn’t bring anything to the party for a fixed appliance.

 

There Steve, I’ve done your face saving for you!

3 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

 

https://www.canalpages.co.uk/listings/i-w-a-b-s-s-limited/

 

 

One has to wonder where the IWA bit of his company name comes from.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

There Steve, I’ve done your face saving for you!

 

Could you answer for Steve too, the question about whether a breach of PD54823 or the GSIUR (when applicable) is grounds for refusal of a BSS?

 

 

(When the BSS rules specifically are not breached, that is.) 

[Chewbacka]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

On reviewing what Steve actually said about flexi hoses, he said “should” not be used for fixed appliances. “Should not” of course means something along the lines of “not best practice”. As opposed to “Must not” or “shall not”. And I’m inclined to agree that for a fixed appliance it is better to use copper pipe (spiralled or whatever) because a flexi hose has a limited life, costs more, and doesn’t bring anything to the party for a fixed appliance.

 

There Steve, I’ve done your face saving for you!

Should is a funny word, in spoken English 'should', does not mean must, but having worked with regulations relating to vehicles, "should" means "must".  So as an expert giving advice I would assume when he said "Should" he means "Must", but if just chatting then maybe not.  Probably that word 'should'  (in this case, is best) be avoided ?

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Could you answer for Steve too, the question about whether a breach of PD54823 or the GSIUR (when applicable) is grounds for refusal of a BSS?

 

 

(When the BSS rules specifically are not breached, that is.) 

Yes if you like. A breach of PD54823/ the GSIUR on a liveaboard boat is not grounds for refusal of BSS for a boat compliant with the BSS rules, because it is not mentioned in the BSS rules. Of course a GSR person on encountering a dangerous installation is obliged to cut off the supply and placard it, but that is not grounds for refusing a BSS. Which is a bit odd but them’s the rules and the rules are not to be made up on the fly by a BSS examiner, no matter how well meaning.

 

Well that is my opinion anyway, which could of course be entirely wrong! Though perhaps no more likely to be wrong than anyone else’s!

[Chewbacka]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Could you answer for Steve too, the question about whether a breach of PD54823 or the GSIUR (when applicable) is grounds for refusal of a BSS?

 

 

(When the BSS rules specifically are not breached, that is.) 

Maybe it means you get your BSS cert for full compliance, but you also get the gas system disconnected for non compliance to GSIUR.  In which case it would be better to use a non GSR registered BSS examiner and just have the certificate.

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Should is a funny word, in spoken English 'should', does not mean must, but having worked with regulations relating to vehicles, "should" means "must".  So as an expert giving advice I would assume when he said "Should" he means "Must", but if just chatting then maybe not.  Probably that word 'should'  (in this case, is best) be avoided ?

Seems odd because in aviation regulation it is very clear that “should” means “best to, but not mandatory” whereas “shall” means  mandatory.

 

Can you cite a regulatory document containing a definitions section that defines “should” as you describe? Otherwise I’m going to think it is just gold plating.

[Boater Sam]

CCLP1 B makes no mention of flexible hoses for boats, perhaps this is where to confusion arises?

Domestic fixed appliances should be rigid pipework unless there is a requirement of flexibility for servicing, the restriction has never as far as I know applied to LPG installations on boats or otherwise except where bulk tanks are used for supplies.

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes if you like. A breach of PD54823/ the GSIUR on a liveaboard boat is not grounds for refusal of BSS for a boat compliant with the BSS rules, because it is not mentioned in the BSS rules. Of course a GSR person on encountering a dangerous installation is obliged to cut off the supply and placard it, but that is not grounds for refusing a BSS. Which is a bit odd but them’s the rules and the rules are not to be made up on the fly by a BSS examiner, no matter how well meaning.

 

Well that is my opinion anyway, which could of course be entirely wrong! Though perhaps no more likely to be wrong than anyone else’s!

 

Thanks. This aligns with my own view which Steve seemed to be contradicting, in amongst all the smoke!

 

So getting back to the point under discussion, we seem to in agreement a hob or oven connected up with a flexi is NOT grounds to withold a BSS ticket. 

 

But if the boat is a residence then GSIUR comes into play, so taking this further, "IUP" must be applied. This means the gas fault must be assessed and categorised ID, AR or NCS, and an appropriate warning notice issued and action taken. In this case it is NCS (meaning no safety risk but rules are not met) so all that needs to be done is issue the warning notice in order to prove the 'gas user' has been made aware of the breach.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman
Spelling.

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Thanks. This aligns with my own view which Steve seemed to be contradicting, in amongst all the smoke!

 

So getting back to the point under discussion, we seem to in agreement a hob or oven connected up with a flexi is NOT grounds to withold a BSS ticket. 

 

But if the boat is a residence then GSIUR comes into play, so taking this further, "IUP" must be applied. This means the gas fault must be assessed and categorised ID, AR or NCS, and an appropriate warning notice issued and action taken. In this case it is NCS (meaning no safety risk but rules are not met) so all that needs to be done is issue the warning notice in order to prove the 'gas user' has been made aware of the breach.

 

Yes we are in agreement, although I will once again point out that I am not GSR qualified. But on the other hand I can read regulations!

[Tessy]

Thanks all for the responses, always enjoy returning to these threads to review the debate!

 

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

And I’m inclined to agree that for a fixed appliance it is better to use copper pipe (spiralled or whatever) because a flexi hose has a limited life, costs more, and doesn’t bring anything to the party for a fixed appliance.

This is exactly what I have as the current set up. Copper pipe connects to oven and spirals to allow for limited movement of oven when needed. Others have told me that this is the norm, but the slight kinking that has occurred doesn't sit well with me, hence why I prefer the idea of a flexi hose. Am I being daft? Heres a pic.

 

 

[nicknorman]

9 minutes ago, Tessy said:

Thanks all for the responses, always enjoy returning to these threads to review the debate!

 

This is exactly what I have as the current set up. Copper pipe connects to oven and spirals to allow for limited movement of oven when needed. Others have told me that this is the norm, but the slight kinking that has occurred doesn't sit well with me, hence why I prefer the idea of a flexi hose. Am I being daft? Heres a pic.

 

 

Since as I understand it, it is only an oven and not a whole cooker, I wonder if the pipe isn’t unnecessarily over-sized? Hard to tell. But anyway there is copper pipe and then there is copper pipe! Some is hard and some is soft. You want soft! For it to have kinked like that it looks fairly hard to me.

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, Tessy said:

This is exactly what I have as the current set up. Copper pipe connects to oven and spirals to allow for limited movement of oven when needed. Others have told me that this is the norm, but the slight kinking that has occurred doesn't sit well with me, hence why I prefer the idea of a flexi hose. Am I being daft? Heres a pic.

 

 

That kinking really isn't good in my opinion. The 'spiral' method I have been instructed to use in the past is four or five whole coils of copper behind the cooker arranged like a spring, which gets stretched to connect, then compressed when the oven is pushed into place and fixed. All a bit of a bodge really, in my view as the joints each end still get mildly stressed in the bending of the coil spring of pipe.

 

Only needs to happen the once, on installation. I'm not sure why you need to remove a fixed oven repeatedly. Every time you flex that copper tube you work harden it more and the system ought to be leak tested each time you disturb it in my view. So in this case a flexi is far more appropriate.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman
Emphasis

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

I am GSR Yes. Marine only. Also BsS Examiner. RCD doesn’t exist and hasn’t for 2 years. Pd 54823 is applicable on all ‘existing’ craft. 10239 and 10322 are new craft for certification to ‘Recreational Craft Requirements’. 

 

You stated that in order to comply with the BSS :

 

15 hours ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

If the oven is going to be permanently installed (not on wheels and able to come out for cleaning) then it should be on Copper pipe.

Throwing RCD, PD54823 etc etc is just trying to bluff your way out of a big-hole you have dug.

 

I repeat the question :

"Where in the BSS does it say that an oven should be installed using" copper pipe".

 

If you can show me the relevant clause I will gladly retract my statements and apologise, if you are unable to substantiate your claim then I am afraid that this is yet another example of a 'rogue' examiner making up his own rules that has resulted in the current perception of the BSS.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That kinking really isn't good in my opinion. The 'spiral' method I have been instructed to use in the past is four or five whole coils of copper behind the cooker arranged like a spring, which gets stretched to connect, then compressed when the oven is pushed into place and fixed. All a bit of a bodge really, in my view as the joints each end still get mildly stressed in the bending of the coil spring of pipe.

 

Only needs to happen the once, on installation. I'm not sure why you need to remove a fixed oven repeatedly. Every time you flex that copper tube you work harden it more and the system ought to be leak tested each time you disturb it in my view. So in this case a flexi is far more appropriate.

 

Obviously everything you say about work hardening and potential for leaks is true, however surely an oven is a pretty reliable bit of kit and so how often are you going to need to move it? Ours has a coil of pipe at the back as you describe, but in 8 years so far no need to move it.

 

Aren't flexi pipes lifed, ie need to be replaced every 10 years or whatever?

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Aren't flexi pipes lifed, ie need to be replaced every 10 years or whatever?

On the low pressure side?  I’ve never heard that stated but of course that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. 

56 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you can show me the relevant clause I will gladly retract my statements and apologise, if you are unable to substantiate your claim then I am afraid that this is yet another example of a 'rogue' examiner making up his own rules that has resulted in the current perception of the BSS.

With you 100% on all of that, Alan. 

[cuthound]

6 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Seems odd because in aviation regulation it is very clear that “should” means “best to, but not mandatory” whereas “shall” means  mandatory.

 

Can you cite a regulatory document containing a definitions section that defines “should” as you describe? Otherwise I’m going to think it is just gold plating.

 

That is certainly the case for electrical regulations. When I was writing specifications I always avoided "should" and used "shall" or "must".

 

That way hours of argument with contractors can be avoided.

[WotEver]

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

In this case it is NCS (meaning no safety risk but rules are not met) so all that needs to be done is issue the warning notice in order to prove the 'gas user' has been made aware of the breach.

If you recall, this is what that jobsworth contracted engineer did due to a ‘missing’ flue support on my BG installed boiler. The fact that there was no place to fit one, and nowhere for the flue to move anyway didn’t stop him issuing one. 

 

I got another one on my last inspection. The gas feed into the house is T’d straight after the meter (one to house, one direct to boiler) and the earthing strap is attached to one side of the tee. Apparently there needs to be another strap on the other side of the tee as well (which disappears into the brickwork with no space to fit it).

 

Keeps the paper mills in business I guess. And makes the jobsworth feel important. 

[MtB]

Just now, WotEver said:

If you recall, this is what that jobsworth contracted engineer did due to a ‘missing’ flue support on my BG installed boiler. The fact that there was no place to fit one, and nowhere for the flue to move anyway didn’t stop him issuing one. 

 

I got another one on my last inspection. The gas feed into the house is T’d straight after the meter (one to house, one direct to boiler) and the earthing strap is attached to one side of the tee. Apparently there needs to be another strap on the other side of the tee as well (which disappears into the brickwork with no space to fit it).

 

Keeps the paper mills in business I guess. And makes the jobsworth feel important. 

 

 

LOL yes, the location of that earth strap in relation to the first tee occupies a lot of tiny minds in this industry. Is often even an exam question!! 

 

[jonathanA]

Don’t talk to me about jobsworth gas safe people. I will never allow a so called gas safe bod to enter my house or work on my gas appliances again ...  if anyone has a Scottish power maintenance contract for their home boiler my strong recommendation is to cancel it immediately and save the money.... 

 

a bit like the bss I would have taken my issue up with gas safe directly but both the bod and Scottish power refused to give me his name and gas safe details so rendering it impossible for me to complain directly to gas safe

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

 

a bit like the bss I would have taken my issue up with gas safe directly but both the bod and Scottish power refused to give me his name and gas safe details so rendering it impossible for me to complain directly to gas safe

 

That itself is grounds for a formal complaint. We all carry a photo ID card we are required to produce on demand. 

 

 

[Ex Brummie]

If Jonathan A lives in Scotland, aren't there different regulations?