LPG piping to oven advice

[Tessy]

New LPG oven going in and I'd like to have some stuff changed with my copper piping. Can someone help me figure out whats going on with current installation. I have what looks like standard 15mm copper pipe that splits between the hob and the oven. After the split, pipe goes down to what looks like 10mm (though I never know how to measure these things properly). Ideally, I would like to replace the bottom pipe (going to the oven) after the isolation valve, with some sort of flexi hose, to enable smoother movement of the oven in future. Anyone able to advise on what hose is best and whether or not it could be connected straight to the lower isolation valve if I can ascertain the correct thread size, etc?

 

 

[Ex Brummie]

To comply with regulations, ascertain first what the manufacturers instructions specify. Having said that, most chandlers sell flexible gas hoses, usually with a 5/16" tail at each end to fit into a compression fitting fixed to the appliance  and the supply pipe, and this is the usual means of connection for an inset oven. Hobs on the other hand are usually hardpiped.

[BEngo]

Any flexible hose suitable for LPG will be OK.  It needs to be marked with the relevant standard- all as per BSS, so read the guide.

 

  The end of the flexible hose you want will be a plain piece of pipe,so buy an olive to fit it, as well as the flexy pipe.  You may  also need a fitting to go from the end of the flex pipe to the inlet fitting on your oven; as the current set-up is a pipe there is probably a suitable fitting which will only need a new olive, so now you need two olives.

 

The current set-up appears to be imperial, from the position of the plain portion on the fittings and my money is on 3/8in.  I would therefore buy a flex pipe with 3/8 standpipe ends.   Remove the existing pipe and recover the nuts  then fit the flexy in place of the existing pipe, with a new olive at either end.  Secure both ends of the flexy so you can't strain the joints.    Leak check, light up and do a flame check  and ensure that oven works as expected.  Job's a guddun.

 

N

[MtB]

4 hours ago, Tessy said:

After the split, pipe goes down to what looks like 10mm (though I never know how to measure these things properly).

 

Its imperial, judging by the design of the nuts on the fittings.  

 

Measure the size of the pipe using one of these:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-LCD-Digital-Vernier-Caliper-Micrometer-Measure-Tool-Gauge-Ruler-150mm/183751488154?epid=1174194734&hash=item2ac871329a&enc=AQADAAAC8FjVrDbVsZ8oH%2F8PNHtt9VX4%2Fw7FZcmMuqsX8uaFEduVFePEKWvF5BcgfAci%2BXW3oCGQbVPXJZblR0SY7Zy1VLQxM384YprWq4biDmLKrtB5rNRR4lbKMXyOn8g6xoVQrEdW%2B%2FfdC5IaT%2F9ZnQ47Kk7jLkyw7oEnLRMKxguF%2Bn%2B0SS6LwewZCa8xc0S8MiHd0Wm6SYVM92hr5BQheFCEKC8lvCJQUdn0bEmDnqKqBV%2BV%2FT3VvHj4gpm7XYrM0NXqRmPudhJJ2nKJBWr84yGJZNn7YHrQA0PbXLGAnO7mg1QgMw7a0ue7D69ry81HMsYZ5Vpx4EDZVH7Xo3%2BsKRrUl%2FdvZKJvetoY531VkEXqrOwRtKZd6l7VLH3Tf72fnARUrFCPtf73gdtTf1XbudVy22cPJBcThq7eq8NgwU8uaPevsIj1rneWpnt%2BBst0tYIWFvrblMJ553vRqDMHmPN%2FBMzN9C93g6wiZpTGsQQhMbe4xoKMOEg5AGNpeiLEsPZ3uG20byYyQ7aCw%2BPvmQbtEyDGQxCbRLVgct8rql8eWkBrTsaIw6MBkxuvoTOo2NE5Wm67AXmCtnNKoqKQhbJ4z92zUM2k21zfd1h6Es2QqFuVYs83Gd1lIPMHtZ6c5MhDU8CVDuHlqlhwGsIbyi4JYK8DxCNMPVJGzXp6vElatXadebgu4Y33DhoaYrYJx3b7r1gCbOBckwI5%2BIggqmhhPNwjOLNY%2FJHNbFQIto9zia7UGOuw1eWC5i640ZMUHP4b0WhWf6TMk%2Fi3ykxgnRQg6quX6QsuCiMmLqH7fACljpj7hqcXMaXbIMJj66bdrKsuDtEwUR%2Fx37BLk6tnGanQnHkhLBNbYMZa0Zc0eTmbhQcmPAjIRfvBjpw7bOvW0KKPF7waSG9pU9rsjKH%2BKAVailPBCDpLGCB2a6YMRLCezJZ5V1rafrD0Q7IgNmKc81tjUC9hHoUM6LSeUk9K4xGYLREBk2pCGOiXF5aws%2FpuXIfh&checksum=183751488154fae66c7c56484b4cbbde245eb32e2e66&frcectupt=true

 

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Measure the size of the pipe using one of these:

<<<<verylonglink>>>>

Mike, when you paste one of those humongous links you can delete the question mark and everything after it. 

 

Like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-LCD-Digital-Vernier-Caliper-Micrometer-Measure-Tool-Gauge-Ruler-150mm/183751488154

[blackrose]

I have one of those steel armoured flexi hoses to my oven. The last inspector told me that they are more damage resistant than a normal gas hose but when they get old you can't see the internal rubber cracking or perishing.

[Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk]

7 hours ago, Tessy said:

New LPG oven going in and I'd like to have some stuff changed with my copper piping. Can someone help me figure out whats going on with current installation. I have what looks like standard 15mm copper pipe that splits between the hob and the oven. After the split, pipe goes down to what looks like 10mm (though I never know how to measure these things properly). Ideally, I would like to replace the bottom pipe (going to the oven) after the isolation valve, with some sort of flexi hose, to enable smoother movement of the oven in future. Anyone able to advise on what hose is best and whether or not it could be connected straight to the lower isolation valve if I can ascertain the correct thread size, etc?

 

 

If the oven is going to be permanently installed (not on wheels and able to come out for cleaning) then it should be on Copper pipe. Flexible hose when installed must be fully accessible for inspection at the time of BSS. I know that may be inconvenient bu it complies with Regs and BSS Requirements. 

[alan_fincher]

1 minute ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

If the oven is going to be permanently installed (not on wheels and able to come out for cleaning) then it should be on Copper pipe. Flexible hose when installed must be fully accessible for inspection at the time of BSS. I know that may be inconvenient bu it complies with Regs and BSS Requirements. 

But it is perfectly possible to have a permanently installed oven, where it is connected by flexible pipe that is accessible for inspection.

[Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk]

5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

But it is perfectly possible to have a permanently installed oven, where it is connected by flexible pipe that is accessible for inspection.

 

5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

But it is perfectly possible to have a permanently installed oven, where it is connected by flexible pipe that is accessible for inspection.

Yes that is correct. Pipework in the photos looks like 5/16” so if the Isolation Tap is staying that would meet the requirements of the BSS . So long as it can be inspected. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk
Spelling mistake.

[Bobbybass]

I just fitted a new oven and hob. Both were 5/16 . The oven was below the hob so I attached the fixed pipe directly to it. That was accessible with the hob out...however dropping the hob in over the top , I wasn't happy with the possibility of stressing the joint when I inserted back on the work surface. I attached a 8mm to 5/16 compression Fulham nozzle to the pipe and the hob fitting, replacing the brass olives with copper. I then used approved flexible pipe (orange...about 300mm between the two nozzles. Tested with leak spray...and was happy that the movement of replacing the hob hadn't disturbed the joins.

[MtB]

4 hours ago, WotEver said:

Mike, when you paste one of those humongous links you can delete the question mark and everything after it. 

 

Like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-LCD-Digital-Vernier-Caliper-Micrometer-Measure-Tool-Gauge-Ruler-150mm/183751488154

 

Interesting, fanx!

 

Them humungous links normally get truncated by the forum software and appear short anyway though. Not sure what happened this time.

 

 

Where is hider Sam anyway, when someone wants gas advice?

 

 

[blackrose]

6 hours ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

If the oven is going to be permanently installed (not on wheels and able to come out for cleaning) then it should be on Copper pipe. Flexible hose when installed must be fully accessible for inspection at the time of BSS. I know that may be inconvenient bu it complies with Regs and BSS Requirements. 

 

You're saying that you shouldn't connect an oven with a hose unless it's on wheels? That's not correct surely? Mine is a fixed installation connected with a hose but it's not on wheels. I remove a few screws and it slides out. The hose can also be inspected by removing drawers in the adjacent kitchen unit.

 

Any LPG pipework must be fully accessible for inspection, not just flexible hoses. The same goes for rigid copper pipe too.

Edited June 20, 2019 by blackrose

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

You're saying that you shouldn't connect an oven with a hose unless it's on wheels? That's not correct surely? Mine is a fixed installation connected with a hose but it's not on wheels. I remove a few screws and it slides out. The hose can also be inspected by removing drawers in the adjacent kitchen unit.

 

Any LPG pipework must be fully accessible for inspection, not just flexible hoses. The same goes for rigid copper pipe too.

Maybe its another example of 'personal interpretation' of the BSS rules rather than just the 'application' of the rules.

 

The BSS do seem to have a problem in this area.

[Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe its another example of 'personal interpretation' of the BSS rules rather than just the 'application' of the rules.

 

The BSS do seem to have a problem in this area.

Read ECP 7.8.1. ‘ the requirement for inspection of pipework inspection is ‘where it can be seen’. ECP 7.9.1 considers ‘hoses’ which must be ‘accessible for inspection along their entire length’. I’m guessing you are not a BSS Examiner (certainly hope not) 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

Read ECP 7.8.1. ‘ the requirement for inspection of pipework inspection is ‘where it can be seen’. ECP 7.9.1 considers ‘hoses’ which must be ‘accessible for inspection along their entire length’. I’m guessing you are not a BSS Examiner (certainly hope not) 

As one would hope that you are au-fait with the regs, maybe you could point out where it says :

 

10 hours ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

If the oven is going to be permanently installed (not on wheels and able to come out for cleaning) then it should be on Copper pipe.

 

Thank you in anticipation.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Chewbacka]

10 hours ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

If the oven is going to be permanently installed (not on wheels and able to come out for cleaning) then it should be on Copper pipe. Flexible hose when installed must be fully accessible for inspection at the time of BSS. I know that may be inconvenient bu it complies with Regs and BSS Requirements. 

Actually the BSS check list states in 7.9.1  >>>

"NOTE – pre‐made hose assemblies conforming to BS 669 may be used to connect cookers to LPG supply
pipework. Such hoses usually have a red stripe running along the length of the hose but may not be marked
with BS 669. The connections on such hoses must terminate with self‐sealing bayonet connections at the
connection points to the LPG supply pipework. The portable appliance connection checks at 7.10 also apply."

 

And in 7.9.4 it again states that the use of hose to connect appliance and/or regulator to pipe work is acceptable, though in this clause there is no requirement for a self-sealing bayonet between hose and pipe work. 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Actually the BSS check list states in 7.9.1  >>>

"NOTE – pre‐made hose assemblies conforming to BS 669 may be used to connect cookers to LPG supply
pipework. Such hoses usually have a red stripe running along the length of the hose but may not be marked
with BS 669. The connections on such hoses must terminate with self‐sealing bayonet connections at the
connection points to the LPG supply pipework. The portable appliance connection checks at 7.10 also apply."

 

And in 7.9.4 it again states that the use of hose to connect appliance and/or regulator to pipe work is acceptable, though in this clause there is no requirement for a self-sealing bayonet between hose and pipe work. 

It will be interesting to see 'Steve' response.

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

Read ECP 7.8.1. ‘ the requirement for inspection of pipework inspection is ‘where it can be seen’. ECP 7.9.1 considers ‘hoses’ which must be ‘accessible for inspection along their entire length’. I’m guessing you are not a BSS Examiner (certainly hope not) 

That is true, but could be misleading, as additionally all pipe fittings must be accessible for inspection.  That said if there is a simple joint, joining two pipes, that is not visible, how would the examiner know it is there and needs to be checked??

[WotEver]

11 hours ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

If the oven is going to be permanently installed (not on wheels and able to come out for cleaning) then it should be on Copper pipe.

Absolute rubbish. This is the kind of made-up interpretation that some examiners are guilty of, and which gives the whole scheme such a poor reputation. 

 

Can you point us to the check that you believe supports your assertion?

 

11 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

But it is perfectly possible to have a permanently installed oven, where it is connected by flexible pipe that is accessible for inspection.

Yes, of course it is. Or any other appliance. The only considerations are that the hose and connections must be ‘suitable’ and less than 1metre long (7.9.4). 

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe its another example of 'personal interpretation' of the BSS rules rather than just the 'application' of the rules.

 

The BSS do seem to have a problem in this area.

It certainly looks that way. 

 

1 hour ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

I’m guessing you are not a BSS Examiner (certainly hope not) 

Very sadly I’m guessing that you are. Perhaps you should go on a refresher course. 

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

I'm guessing you are not a BSS Examiner (certainly hope not) 

I'm guessing that you are, which as you appear to have posted replies that directly contradict each other, I find worrying!

A lot of the difficulties around BSS examinations do genuinely seem to be some examiners difficulty in interpreting what is written in the check lists.

[WotEver]

9 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

A lot of the difficulties around BSS examinations do genuinely seem to be some examiners difficulty in interpreting what is written in the check lists.

Very true.

 

It’s a shame that @Rob@BSSOffice isn’t very active on here these days to see the problems in this area for himself. 

[MtB]

This thing about movable cookers being OK (required, even) to connect with a flexi but not a fixed oven, hob etc comes from the gas regs governing houses. I suspect Steve is a GSR bod too and has simply mixed up the regulations in his head. But being fair, if this boat is a liveaboard then GSIUR applies too. But not for the purposes of inspecting and issuing a BSS ticket. 

 

There might be something in BS5482 part III or whatever it's called this week along similar lines, but BS5482 only applies to boats being submitted for RCD approval, as any fule kno. 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit

[WotEver]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I suspect Steve is a GSR bod too and has simply mixed up the regulations in his head.

Possibly. His site only states “Registration number 591109 Gas Safe CCLP1-B (boats)”

[Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk]

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

This thing about movable cookers being OK (required, even) to connect with a flexi but not a fixed oven, hob etc comes from the gas regs governing houses. I suspect Steve is a GSR bod too and has simply mixed up the regulations in his head. But being fair, if this boat is a liveaboard then GSIUR applies too. But not for the purposes of inspecting and issuing a BSS ticket. 

 

There might be something in BS5482 part III or whatever it's called this week along similar lines, but BS5482 only applies to boats being submitted for RCD approval, as any fule kno. 

I am GSR Yes. Marine only. Also BsS Examiner. RCD doesn’t exist and hasn’t for 2 years. Pd 54823 is applicable on all ‘existing’ craft. 10239 and 10322 are new craft for certification to ‘Recreational Craft Requirements’. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

Pd 54823 is applicable on all ‘existing’ craft.

 

Really? Can you cite a rule stating a breach of PD54823 is cause to fail a BSS please? Much obliged. 

 

Oh, and does PD54823 actually state flexis may not be used to connect fixed appliances? I'm not that familiar with it. 

 

And finally, does a breach of GSIUR mean BSS failure too?