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Narrowboat depreciation due to diesel's future


piedaterre

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21 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

It seems utterly pointless having an electric drive boat from an environmental point of view, if a fossil-fueled genny is being used to generate the electricity!

 

And it certainly shouldn't qualify for a reduced licence on the grounds of being environmentally friendly. Hopefully CRT will sort that one out shortly. 

 

 

They have solar as well its just there as a backup and for if needed making hot water

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5 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

So where are these masses of people who have been convicted for remortgaging their house and buying a boat with the additional funding?

 

Yawn.

 

Just now, peterboat said:

They have solar as well its just there as a backup and for if needed making hot water

 

And what will get used the most in Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb?!!

 

I think I can guess....

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No you haven't. Gloves off time now. It seems to me you've come here not to discuss the issues you raised but to parade what a clever and rational being you are, making all these logical choices and having all these options to choose from. You won't engage in discussion about your thread title subject matter, preferring to feed your own pre-judgements about forums being populated by packs and now you're just being an arse. 

 

One of the entitled young, you are coming across as. 

 

 

 

 

Irony.

 

Thanks to everyone else for the input.  Definitely a fair amount to think over.

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Carbon with diesel isnt the issue its NOX and you get it from Bio fuel as well, some diesels arnt suitable for it either

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

It is an issue, but only in the sense that the huge switch to diesel 20-30 years ago was because petrol engines emitted far more carbon per mile.  

 

Unfortunately, popular opinion doesn't differentiate between different forms of pollution, or whether the effects are local or global.

There is one major issue facing the human population and it's not NOX, it's carbon emissions causing climate change. The problem with environmentalists is that they package up all the myriad ways in which we are hurting The Environment into one broad problem, which is then turned political to get socialist policies on the docket, because climate change is a big (and real) issue that the market evidently isn't very interested in sorting out.

 

The proliferation of plastics is one thing. Air quality is another. Loss of habitat and wildlife yet another. These things have some importance, but not anywhere near the scale of global warming. And they are only somewhat related.

 

The push for electric drive is not about global warming, but about air quality. Diesel (and petrol) has or will be soon banned in city centres, because air quality is deteriorating. However, electric drive, as @Mike the Boilerman pointed out, just pushes the carbon production somewhere else - to a genny in the case of a narrowboater, or to the coal-fired power plant in the case of landlubbers (or boaters with a shore hookup). It's theoretically possible that we'll upgrade to some clean, efficient source of fuel - such as nuclear - but the UK at least is a long way off. And we simply don't have the sun power times land area for most renewables.

 

This should be plainly evident to any narrowboater. Hence my tongue in cheek link to the sun-powered narrowboat - it can't be done.

 

NOX is bad, sure, but having a few hundred biodiesel boats along a canal through a city is nothing compared to tens of thousands of HGVs. They could surely be granted an exception without hurting anyone.

 

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

It can but you need 3.7kw of it to do it, and you have to know what you are doing

3.7KW of solar panels is around 25sqm, or roughly the entire roof of a 60' narrowboat. Are you confident that these panels are going to generate enough power throughout December and January to heat a 60' narrowboat, and an electric cooker, and provide hot water, and provide motive power, ON TOP of all the things you currently use electrical power for (fridge etc)? Without ever charging your batteries with a coal fired power plant? I don't believe it can be done. At least not to anywhere near the same level of comfort as we presently enjoy by burning coal in our stove, gas on our cooker and diesel in our engine.

 

Please prove me wrong if I am and I will definitely convert to an electric drive. Do CaRT really offer a discount for electric powered boats?

 

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1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

There is one major issue facing the human population and it's not NOX, it's carbon emissions causing climate change. The problem with environmentalists is that they package up all the myriad ways in which we are hurting The Environment into one broad problem, which is then turned political to get socialist policies on the docket, because climate change is a big (and real) issue that the market evidently isn't very interested in sorting out.

 

The proliferation of plastics is one thing. Air quality is another. Loss of habitat and wildlife yet another. These things have some importance, but not anywhere near the scale of global warming. And they are only somewhat related.

 

The push for electric drive is not about global warming, but about air quality. Diesel (and petrol) has or will be soon banned in city centres, because air quality is deteriorating. However, electric drive, as @Mike the Boilerman pointed out, just pushes the carbon production somewhere else - to a genny in the case of a narrowboater, or to the coal-fired power plant in the case of landlubbers (or boaters with a shore hookup). It's theoretically possible that we'll upgrade to some clean, efficient source of fuel - such as nuclear - but the UK at least is a long way off. And we simply don't have the sun power times land area for most renewables.

 

This should be plainly evident to any narrowboater. Hence my tongue in cheek link to the sun-powered narrowboat - it can't be done.

 

NOX is bad, sure, but having a few hundred biodiesel boats along a canal through a city is nothing compared to tens of thousands of HGVs. They could surely be granted an exception without hurting anyone.

 

3.7KW of solar panels is around 25sqm, or roughly the entire roof of a 60' narrowboat. Are you confident that these panels are going to generate enough power throughout December and January to heat a 60' narrowboat, and an electric cooker, and provide hot water, and provide motive power, ON TOP of all the things you currently use electrical power for (fridge etc)? Without ever charging your batteries with a coal fired power plant? I don't believe it can be done. At least not to anywhere near the same level of comfort as we presently enjoy by burning coal in our stove, gas on our cooker and diesel in our engine.

 

Please prove me wrong if I am and I will definitely convert to an electric drive. Do CaRT really offer a discount for electric powered boats?

 

You wouldnt fit it on a narrowboat, mine is a widebeam with wheelhouse, 2 of the panels are going on it! What it provides for me motive power all my electrical needs including hot water in the summer [the 2500 watts when not driving the boat heat water via the immersion heater] In the winter all the solar goes to domestic which pretty much covers my usage, central heating is by Rayburn which also does haot water and cooking, I use a case of anthracite but have a lot of wood as well. For emergency I have a whispergen it creates 37 amps at 24 volts for the domestic batteries and  hot water, at a push I can charge my drive batteries from it.

25% discount for electric drive it is going to be reviewed so it may go up? or down?

 

As an aside I quickly worked out that if cites and towns charged from say doncaster they get 10 quid rotherham 10 quid sheffield 10 quid these are all for the day charges you stayed at sheffield 2 nights so thats another 20 quid then back to rotherham 10 quid and doncaster 10 quid so thats 70 quid for a few days, why wouldnt the towns and cities charge given that they get to keep the money for green infrastructure? 

Edited by peterboat
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23 minutes ago, peterboat said:

You wouldnt fit it on a narrowboat, mine is a widebeam with wheelhouse, 2 of the panels are going on it! What it provides for me motive power all my electrical needs including hot water in the summer [the 2500 watts when not driving the boat heat water via the immersion heater] In the winter all the solar goes to domestic which pretty much covers my usage, central heating is by Rayburn which also does haot water and cooking, I use a case of anthracite but have a lot of wood as well. For emergency I have a whispergen it creates 37 amps at 24 volts for the domestic batteries and  hot water, at a push I can charge my drive batteries from it.

25% discount for electric drive it is going to be reviewed so it may go up? or down?

That's impressive, and certainly must be a dream to drive an electric boat! However this proves my point. Come back to me when your cooking, heating and winter hot water is done on solar too. These things consume the lions share of the energy on a boat, inclusive of motive power. At a guess I'd say upwards of three quarters of your energy for light cruisers in winter.

 

25% discount for electric drive is very nice indeed! Not enough to convert, but would be high on my list for a new build. The discount really, in my mind, should be dependent on having a certain wattage of solar panels installed. The majority of your energy goes on heating things up, not moving things about. Otherwise you can just game the system with a genny.

 

31 minutes ago, peterboat said:

70 quid for a few days, why wouldnt the towns and cities charge given that they get to keep the money for green infrastructure? 

It's pretty likely that they will charge I suppose, you're right. Do you think this will have a significant impact on the value of a boat? (i.e. cause them to depreciate when the rules come into effect?)

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7 hours ago, pete.i said:

when I sat down and thought about it I realised that the equity release people had just bought my house for £45,000.

I agree equity release is a really  bad plan and should be prohibited as it is open to the abuse of people in a vulnerable situation.

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4 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

If that were the case our boat would be worth a damn sight less than it is now!

 

Yours is a good example as you have owned your boat 10 years or so. I could have a fair guess whet  paid for it  as I bought the same make/model earlier the same year , as you know.

I dare say your boat  might sell now for something like the sum you paid for it ten years ago. Maybe not quite that much , perhaps a bit less as it is considerably older now.

The trouble is inflation, although modest, will have depleted the value of that money by at least 30% .   So you if you sell now for the sum you paid you will have lost 30% in depreciation.

Not to mention another 10% if you use a broker to sell it.

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1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Yours is a good example as you have owned your boat 10 years or so. I could have a fair guess whet  paid for it  as I bought the same make/model earlier the same year , as you know.

I dare say your boat  might sell now for something like the sum you paid for it ten years ago. Maybe not quite that much , perhaps a bit less as it is considerably older now.

The trouble is inflation, although modest, will have depleted the value of that money by at least 30% .   So you if you sell now for the sum you paid you will have lost 30% in depreciation.

Not to mention another 10% if you use a broker to sell it.

What value do you put on ten years of life enjoying the boat whilst still alive?

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1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

That's impressive, and certainly must be a dream to drive an electric boat! However this proves my point. Come back to me when your cooking, heating and winter hot water is done on solar too. These things consume the lions share of the energy on a boat, inclusive of motive power. At a guess I'd say upwards of three quarters of your energy for light cruisers in winter.

 

25% discount for electric drive is very nice indeed! Not enough to convert, but would be high on my list for a new build. The discount really, in my mind, should be dependent on having a certain wattage of solar panels installed. The majority of your energy goes on heating things up, not moving things about. Otherwise you can just game the system with a genny.

 

It's pretty likely that they will charge I suppose, you're right. Do you think this will have a significant impact on the value of a boat? (i.e. cause them to depreciate when the rules come into effect?)

For me it was enough to change to electric so that I am ready for the future, I intend to keep my mooring but cruise around in the summer, I also have an Aixam electric truck with 900 watts of solar on it, again it works for me, its sits around and charges up for free, the van has no MOT or tax requirements so its a bargain for collecting free wood

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4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Quite so, but get caught out and you get charged with obtaining money by deception. 

 

 

 

OK it's a fair cop!

 

In 1978 I borrowed £300 from the bank to buy a new motorbike and instead I spent it on ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A car!

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3 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

...one broad problem, which is then turned political to get socialist policies on the docket...

 

This throwaway comment detracts from some of the basic truths in the rest of your post.

 

While big business/capitalists/right-wingers/established money can continue to make more money short-term by backing...

 

Oil and gas exploration, coal mining, large power stations, destruction of rain forests to grow cash crops such as beef and palm oil etc

 

instead of:

 

Social action, community involvement through local CHP schemes, small-scale ground source heat pumps. small-scale renewable energy, sensible grants for remedial insulation. legislation to require new buildings to be environmentally efficient,

 

...they will continue to do so.

 

Climate change is a political issue. Wasn't it that nice Mr Cameron who said something about "green crap"?  What is Farridge's policy?

 

 

 

Edited by Machpoint005
for clarity
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3 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

There is one major issue facing the human population and it's not NOX, it's carbon emissions causing climate change. The problem with environmentalists is that they package up all the myriad ways in which we are hurting The Environment into one broad problem, which is then turned political to get socialist policies on the docket, because climate change is a big (and real) issue that the market evidently isn't very interested in sorting out.

 

The proliferation of plastics is one thing. Air quality is another. Loss of habitat and wildlife yet another. These things have some importance, but not anywhere near the scale of global warming. And they are only somewhat related.

 

 

 Because they are and the problems are linked, everything we do has a knock on effect somewhere, good and bad.

Habitat loss directly effects climate change, but the loss also effect species diversity and population, which will also be effected by climate change, it's a complex web.

 

Getting this message across is really difficult which is why we end up with government policy to push diesel to reduce carbon dioxide, completely ignoring the issues associated with petrol as an example. 

 

It is one big problem 

 

 

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8 hours ago, pete.i said:

Yes don't even think of equity release. In my opinion it is the scam of the century and should be investigated. We went down that road and my house is worth £350,000. We got £45,000 for it. At the time we desparately needed the money but when I sat down and thought about it I realised that the equity release people had just bought my house for £45,000. Luckily we were able to buy it back later on but that cost us £65,000 after just a couple of years. First of all I would think that you are far too young to consider equity release. These companies want people who are in their death throes so that they can get their money back and some, quickly. There are much more lucrative ways to borrow money but do not EVER think that anyone who lends you money is doing it for your benefit. They aint.

 

Oh forgot this bit. When the equity release people came round thay wouldn't accept the valuation that I had had done a couple of weeks earlier. They sent their own people in and then they wildly undervalued my house.

Equity release is a very different beast these days. Not for everyone I will agree but for the asset rich, cash poor it can mean the difference between a comfortable retirement and one of worry and struggle. The drawdown type, where you only take what you want when you want it up to an agreed level rather than taking a lump sum to sit in your bank earning the square root of diddly squat is very attractive to lots of people. 

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6 minutes ago, Dyertribe said:

Equity release is a very different beast these days. Not for everyone I will agree but for the asset rich, cash poor it can mean the difference between a comfortable retirement and one of worry and struggle. The drawdown type, where you only take what you want when you want it up to an agreed level rather than taking a lump sum to sit in your bank earning the square root of diddly squat is very attractive to lots of people. 

I agree. I tried to get my parents to release money from their property and spend it but they refused, leaving the house to myself and my two sisters. Non of us need or want it and mum who now is on her own still wants us to have it. We will sell it and spend the money, well I certainly will, I have always found enjoying the money better than stockpiling it in a bank. Its sad as they could have enjoyed it though mum gets pleasure from leaving it to us ?

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17 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

"Narrowboat depreciation due to diesel's future"

 

 

Honestly, if depreciation bothers you don't EVER buy a boat. Owning a NB cost £5k a year before you even consider the capital value drifting down. If you can't afford to shell out £5k-£10K a year to run it, plus say 10% a year depreciation, then forget it. You'll screw yourself in knots worrying about the never-ending drain on your finances. 

 

 

 

 

I agree. A boat is a bad investment if your objective is maintaining the value of your asset. A historic boat might hold its value but then you'll probably spend a lot on maintenance.

Edited by blackrose
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