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Narrowboat depreciation due to diesel's future


piedaterre

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5 minutes ago, piedaterre said:

Yep but we all know Mike was being deliberately obtuse in his response.  Anyhow, no more airtime from me being given to it.  At best it's boring.

Is he? And do we? Fair enough. But I think you'll find this is one of those nose-spite-face moments. 

 

 

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Just now, Tumshie said:

Is he? And do we? Fair enough. But I think you'll find this is one of those nose-spite-face moments. 

 

 

Italicizing and phrases like 'whatever that means' in response to a question I've asked sort of hints the question or whatever's been said is nonsense.  Doesn't really go down well.  If that was said to somebody during a face to face conversation, would it be well received?  I doubt it.

 

Anyhow, I didn't come on here to debate that or get into spats with forum personalities. 

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1 minute ago, piedaterre said:

Italicizing and phrases like 'whatever that means' in response to a question I've asked sort of hints the question or whatever's been said is nonsense.  Doesn't really go down well.  If that was said to somebody during a face to face conversation, would it be well received?  I doubt it.

 

Anyhow, I didn't come on here to debate that or get into spats with forum personalities. 

 

iu.jpeg

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I think all concerned, including @Mike the Boilerman and particularly @piedaterre (at least up until the last post) have been generally respectful. We're all taking the time out of our day to ask questions and provide advice for the benefit of the community. So let's all assume good faith, shall we? The general consensus is that the decline of diesel won't be a big contributor to the depreciation of narrowboats, and this could have perhaps been expressed in a more friendly way by some of us. Let's try to be excellent to each other.

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9 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Let's try to be excellent to each other.

When it comes to what the OP is asking MtB is one of a small number of long term forum members that has a great deal of experience in everything the OP is asking about so perhaps it's in the OPs best interest to find out where Mike was coming from before making assumptions and deciding he was bored. 

 

But in the same way and for the same reasons that the OP is bored so am I. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

When it comes to what the OP is asking MtB is one of a small number of long term forum members that has a great deal of experience in everything the OP is asking about so perhaps it's in the OPs best interest to find out where Mike was coming from before making assumptions and deciding he was bored. 

 

But in the same way and for the same reasons that the OP is bored so am I. 

 

Still missing the point here.  It's not what was said, it's how it was worded.

 

To the rest of you, thanks a lot for your inputted.  Genuinely appreciated.

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7 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

MtB is one of a small number of long term forum members that has a great deal of experience in everything the OP is asking about so perhaps it's in the OPs best interest to find out where Mike was coming from before making assumptions and deciding he was bored.

It's true, @Mike the Boilerman is a wealth of information that has been directly beneficial to me personally, so I agree completely that OP judged his wording too harshly - that's what I mean by assuming good faith. I feel like you could have read his words in two ways, one with a sarcastic tone and one without, and that's part of the problem when communicating by text. I'm suggesting that when someone (especially if they are new to the forum) reads something that could be interpreted one way or another, err on the side of friendly and helpful, because usually that's the case when someone takes the time out of their day to provide free advice.

 

4 minutes ago, piedaterre said:

It's not what was said, it's how it was worded.

That's why assuming good faith is a key principle of Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith

I don't think he was trying to be unkind, but even if he was, it makes the discussion a lot more pleasant and productive if we assume that he wasn't rather than resort to it ourselves. Let's be excellent to each other, even when we feel like we weren't beed excellent to.

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Just now, piedaterre said:

Still missing the point here. 

I'm absolutely not missing the point. Everybody has their own style of writing, and unlike in real life you don't have body language to help you interpret what someone is saying. You don't really know where Mike was coming from or why he was asking / saying what he did; and when I said this was a nose-spite-face moment was because you made an assumption and based on that assumption you decided to haul attitude with one of the few people who could give you all the answers you needed. 

 

And no we are not a pack we are a community and EVERYBODY is somebody, including you. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

You're one of my favourite people. :hug:

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1 hour ago, piedaterre said:

Pack mentality.  Still, must feel nice to be somebody, even if it's on a boat forum.

 

It must be wonderful to be perfect, but I wouldn't know.

 

You can ask a reasonable question, get answers you don't like, then threaten to tek yer bat 'ome, but it won't impress many people on this forum.

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1 hour ago, piedaterre said:

Definitely not bored with the thread, all sensible input welcome, and I've taken it on board.  More bored with attitude of some respondents but as said, no more airtime.

 

No you haven't. Gloves off time now. It seems to me you've come here not to discuss the issues you raised but to parade what a clever and rational being you are, making all these logical choices and having all these options to choose from. You won't engage in discussion about your thread title subject matter, preferring to feed your own pre-judgements about forums being populated by packs and now you're just being an arse. 

 

One of the entitled young, you are coming across as. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

I agree with Cuthound who pointed out that diesel engines can run on various biofuels. Biofuels are carbon neutral so will survive any kind of regulation (at least for use cases such as heavy machinery, emergency generators and boating). They are not even that much more expensive than diesel, their main problem is the amount of land they take to produce - but this is being tackled with bio engineering and potentially harvesting algae and kelp from the sea. So I think the whole premise of your concern is false - diesel isn't going away soon and when it does there is a cheap(ish), carbon neutral, and easily convertible solution on the horizon.

 

Right now of course it is impossible to run a narrowboat year round without significant burning of fossil fuels, no matter how many solar panels and windmills you install.

 

However your concern about depreciation is very valid, just not for the reason you are concerned about. For financial purposes you need to look at a boat as less like a house and more like a car. If you wouldn't remortgage to put money into a car, due to their steep depreciation curve, then you have your answer for whether to do it with a boat. And that is not counting maintenance costs, which may well be underestimated at 150 GBP/month, depending on your luck.

 

 

Carbon with diesel isnt the issue its NOX and you get it from Bio fuel as well, some diesels arnt suitable for it either

1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

Tangentially related - "proof" that narrowboats can be powered by the sun!

https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/17709773.solar-shine-proof-that-narrow-boats-can-be-powered-by-sun/
 

Apparently those ten solar panels can provide enough heat, light, hot water, electricity and movement for the entire boat, even in the darkest of winters!

It can but you need 3.7kw of it to do it, and you have to know what you are doing

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Carbon with diesel isnt the issue

 

It is an issue, but only in the sense that the huge switch to diesel 20-30 years ago was because petrol engines emitted far more carbon per mile.  

 

Unfortunately, popular opinion doesn't differentiate between different forms of pollution, or whether the effects are local or global.

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Just now, Machpoint005 said:

 

It is an issue, but only in the sense that the huge switch to diesel 20-30 years ago was because petrol engines emitted far more carbon per mile.  

 

Unfortunately, popular opinion doesn't differentiate between different forms of pollution, or whether the effects are local or global.

Virtual Greenie Ian, my point was that if its bio diesel and it carbon neutral that isnt the problem at all, its the NOX which is present regardless of which version of diesel you use

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1 minute ago, Machpoint005 said:

We seem to be trying really hard to disagree about saying the same thing!

:cheers:

Exactly Ian I did say that in my opening post taht I thought the only issue would be towns and cities I cant see a mass change to electric, it will be gradual Johny and Finesse are proving this, they now always have an electric boat in build, they are also going down the LPG built in generator route because it cleaner and quieter. They feel that its better to be at the front rather than the rear when it comes to electric boats, I agree with them, but would never pay the cost of a commercial system that they use, mine cost 3.5 K including batteries, and I have got back 2.5 K for the engine plus £300 a year on the license. The solar  and extra MPPT controller are extra to this, but I do use it for other things on the boat

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3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

they are also going down the LPG built in generator route because it cleaner and quieter.

 

It seems utterly pointless having an electric drive boat from an environmental point of view, if a fossil-fueled genny is being used to generate the electricity!

 

And it certainly shouldn't qualify for a reduced licence on the grounds of being environmentally friendly. Hopefully CRT will sort that one out shortly. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And yet it is important enough a factor for you to have selected it as your thread title. 

 

You give the impression that the depreciation due to diesel's future (whatever that means) is the make or break factor. Where does the break even point lie? five years? 10 years? 20 years? 

 

 

 

You've clearly never done a remortgage. They ALWAYS ask. 

 

When I was following the BTL thing it was a recurring subject discussion, what you could and could not put on the remortgage form in order to get your application accepted. Putting "borrowing to raise a deposit for next house" generally got you a rejection, but lying was a no-no too. The beautifully loose and whoolly term "for further investment" was acceptable to Mortgage Express..... I think it allowed them to assume you were buying equities or something.

 

 

 

 

Indeed. And you can say whatever you like, new car, family holiday, home improvements, the list goes on.

 

Doesn't mean you actually have to spend the money on that though.

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1 minute ago, Naughty Cal said:

Indeed. And you can say whatever you like, new car, family holiday, home improvements, the list goes on.

 

Doesn't mean you actually have to spend the money on that though.

 

Quite so, but get caught out and you get charged with obtaining money by deception. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

...which would depreciate by about half its value every ten years.

If that were the case our boat would be worth a damn sight less than it is now!

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Quite so, but get caught out and you get charged with obtaining money by deception. 

 

 

Unless the bank specifies in their paperwork what you have to spend the money on then you are free to spend it on what you like.

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1 minute ago, Naughty Cal said:

 

Unless the bank specifies in their paperwork what you have to spend the money on then you are free to spend it on what you like.

 

 

Have it your way then. I know you know everything about everything already and will argue the toss interminably with people far more experienced in a subject than you are.

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Have it your way then. I know you know everything about everything already and will argue the toss interminably with people far more experienced in a subject than you are.

So where are these masses of people who have been convicted for remortgaging their house and buying a boat with the additional funding?

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13 hours ago, piedaterre said:

Once the letting-related fees and rental income's taken into account I expect to be worse off by around £250-300 a month versus staying put.  But this doesn't account for the fact I'd have an asset worth £45K or so.  So the real net position won't be quite so much,

 

You're right, I'm sure a lot would kill to be in my position but I guess that's the sticking point.  I'm potentially giving up on something that others would kill for!  So maybe there's something wrong with it.

 

If it comes to it I guess I could sell a boat in a few years time for not too much less than I paid and pay a massive chunk off the house and it'd be like it never happened.

Stop bothering about mere money and have a life. You have enough money so its not a problem for you. Enjoy your life rather than thinking every decision has to make sense financialy, thats a very sad view. We have met countless people over our 30 years liveaboard life that say they are going to do it, and die before they get chance just worrying about housing markets and crap like that. There are no pockets in shrouds. Five sad words in one phrase ( He died a wealthy man )

We have jumped and done more stuff in our lifetimes than just about anyone we have ever known, if either of us drop dead tomorrow it will not have been wishing we had tried stuff out, just get on with it :)

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