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Proof of boat ownership


Steve Manc

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Hi

 

How do you prove ownership of your narrowboat?

 

I have recently painted my narrowboat and choose not to paint the name on it.

 

A boater  mentioned because my narrowboat has no name displayed on it how can I prove I own it!

 

Anyone heard of this before?

 

P.S I keep all invoices from the marina and of works carried out on the boat, plus insurance.

 

Thanks 

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2 minutes ago, Steve Manc said:

Hi

 

How do you prove ownership of your narrowboat?

 

I have recently painted my narrowboat and choose not to paint the name on it.

 

A boater  mentioned because my narrowboat has no name displayed on it how can I prove I own it!

 

Anyone heard of this before?

 

P.S I keep all invoices from the marina and of works carried out on the boat, plus insurance.

 

Thanks 

I don't see how painting a name on the side proves ownership.

If the boat is not that old it will have a CIN/HIN which if quoted on invoices, bill of sale etc would help.

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As I understand it if you have owned the boat for some time and enjoyed going boating then a history of photographic evidence of you using the boat as well as you being on the crt ownership documentation would probably suffice. Of course it might be a clonecraft that could complicate the photo thing! 

 

However if you bought the boat last week without a signature on a bill of sale or bank details then it could get awkward.

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As a future buyer I have wondering this and the answer I am coming up with is there is no positive proof. Best advice I have seen from a purchasers view is ask for receipts for repairs or updates. Maybe the owner has some photos of he and family on the boat. Things like that that reasonable assure the person owns the boat. A existing loan on boat to a bank would be reasonably assuring to me.

 

In the states you often have a Title, that is a legal document recorded with the State government showing ownership of cars, camper and boats.  But not all states had that even though I think all do now. Trading old (antique) cars we face the same problem of no proof of ownership.

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49 minutes ago, Kudzucraft said:

Best advice I have seen from a purchasers view is ask for receipts for repairs or updates.

Any time this conversation comes up someone always says exactly this but the counter argument to that is if you live on your boat then the likelihood is that you keep all your documentation on the boat with you so if someone steals your boat then they have stolen all that documentation along with it and therefore have it to present to a willing buyer. 

 

ETA - And how do you prove that those people in the photos are the sellers family and not the family of the person he stole the boat from. 

 

Edited by Tumshie
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2 hours ago, Steve Manc said:

A boater  mentioned because my narrowboat has no name displayed on it how can I prove I own it!

You only have to prove it's yours if someone says it isn't, and if someone says it isn't who's gonna care unless they say it's theirs and as it's in your possession they would have to prove it was theirs in the first place. So I think you're good. 

 

If you decide you want to sell her paint the name back on. Sorted. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is but C&RT have never prosecuted anyone for failure to comply.

C&RT say that all they need to see id the registration number.

I suspected that.  I find it interesting that if CRT deviate from the law in a way boaters don't like there are howls of anguish but not a murmur when it is something they are happy with. 

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11 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I suspected that.  I find it interesting that if CRT deviate from the law in a way boaters don't like there are howls of anguish but not a murmur when it is something they are happy with. 

I made a similar point regarding the illegality of the Roving Moorings, and the Winter Moorings (Protection Money !!!)

But was howled down being told because it helps boaters it should be supported, irrespective.

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When I sold my boat I provided a paper trail including original invoice, insurance docs, EA registration  invoices for all extras bought for the boat and work done, all bearing my name this backed up by proof of ID by way of passport, driving licence etc etc. Fairly positive proof I thought 

Phil

Edited by Phil Ambrose
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48 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

When I sold my boat I provided a paper trail including original invoice, insurance docs, EA registration  invoices for all extras bought for the boat and work done, all bearing my name this backed up by proof of ID by way of passport, driving licence etc etc. Fairly positive proof I thought 

Phil

This is exactly the sort of paper trail I was thinking of and would want to see if I were buying from an individual. 

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I have the original Bill of Sale for Jarrah, as provided by the Registry of Ships, and acceptable to that body for registration under the Merchant Shipping Acts and to prove title ( which was then divisible into sixty-four parts, thirty two of them belonging to SWMBO).  I will provide any future owner with that and a Bill of Sale from us.

N

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8 hours ago, BEngo said:

I have the original Bill of Sale for Jarrah, as provided by the Registry of Ships, and acceptable to that body for registration under the Merchant Shipping Acts and to prove title ( which was then divisible into sixty-four parts, thirty two of them belonging to SWMBO).  I will provide any future owner with that and a Bill of Sale from us.

N

I'm sure tho' that you'd admit that out of the 100,000 (ish) boats registered on the inland waterways that piece of paper is a rarity.

 

I would expect '1st owners' and hopefully '2nd owners' to have the original BoS but knowing the general feelings of 'paperwork' on the Cut, I not sure that there are many examples that could go much further.

 

I think out of 18 boats over the last 30+ years only the last two have had a full suite of 'boats papers' (VAT Paid certificate, RCD compliance certificate, original BoS, Manuals, etc etc) and that is only because they are 'sea-going' capable vessel's.

 

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Absolutely correct Alan, but why is a bit of a mystery to me, given the price of boats these days

  Even at the bottom end buying can be a major investment, relative to the wealth of the buyer, so one might have expected more proof of ownership requirements.  OTOH one hears of few transactions that go wrong on title grounds so the risk seems low enough to take ownership on trust.

N

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10 minutes ago, BEngo said:

one hears of few transactions that go wrong on title grounds so the risk seems low enough to take ownership on trust.

Private purchases seem to 'never' go wrong (at least don't seem to get reported) whilst the perception of safety by buying/selling thru a broker, or a boat builder goes regularly 'wrong' with probably /possibility at least one example per annum.

 

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/jailed-boat-salesman-blamed-flooding-1518137

 

This is 2018's example.

 

He sold several boats on brokerage and didn't pass the money onto the vendors - who then owns the boat ?

He took money from buyers and didn't hand over the boat - who then owns the boat ?

He used boats left on brokerage as security on a £140,000 loan

He 'stole' £480,000 from boat buyers/sellers

 

There were (from memory) more than a dozen people (transactions) affected.

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9 hours ago, Kudzucraft said:

This is exactly the sort of paper trail I was thinking of and would want to see if I were buying from an individual. 

Let me just play Devil's advocate again for a second. There are quite a number of genuine, honest, law abiding citizens who have neither a drivers license or a passport, nor is there any law in Great Britain that says that if you are a British citizen you must have a photo ID of any sort. (no, there's not, I looked it up before I started)

 

So you find the boat of your dreams, you are VERY keen to buy it, there is a plethora of original documentation including invoices all bearing the name of the boat owner, but the owner tells you he has neither drivers license or passport. Now if he had stolen the boat (and the paperwork along with it) he would have all that same paperwork and would tell you he had no drivers license or passport. 

 

As Alan has stated in post 18 a lot of people on the cut aren't that keen on paper work, don't bother with it if the can help it and/or do a lot of the work themselves. If you have a rummage around on here you will find loads of examples of people who have stated they will only pay in cash or who don't bother keeping invoices or couldn't find then if the did. 

 

I'm not being contrary for the sake of it, I'm just saying that just because that's what you want doesn't mean that's what you are going to get. There is nothing wrong with being vigilant and I'm not suggesting you through caution to the wind.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tumshie said:

The owner tells you he has neither driving licence or passport. Now if he had stolen the boat (and the paperwork along with it) he would have all that same paperwork and would tell you he had no driving licence or passport.

 

Caveat emptor.

 

Sooner or later all buyers have to ask themselves "do I trust the vendor?"

 

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One situation which having documentation can still lead to problems is where the boat is owned jointly.

When I was involved with a brokerage we had a couple of boats that looked absolutely genuine with lots of documentation with the boat's name and the apparent owner's name on it.  However it turned out that the boat was jointly owned by a couple who had split up and the other half hadn't agreed to the sale, or even be aware of it.

Very difficult to pick that one up.

 

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It is my understanding that a name should be on display, but there is also the Registration Number plate, which also, I believe needs to be on display, as is a current licence. But then do all navigation authorities have by laws that specify a name. I wonder?

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17 hours ago, Jerra said:

I suspected that.  I find it interesting that if CRT deviate from the law in a way boaters don't like there are howls of anguish but not a murmur when it is something they are happy with. 

They're not deviating from anything.  In most situations, a prosecuting authority has discrection whether to use their powers.  Technology has rendered this law largely obsolete so they use their discretion and regard it as de minimis.  They could seek to have the law changed buit that would cost them time and money and they'd rightly be critisized for it.

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Wonderful world this where a prosecuting authority has discretion regarding their powers. In reality is it fear of a costly court room battle, the lack of staff to follow the process through or simply a lack of interest? Wherever rules exist these days, there seems to be a general belief that avoidance is rarely penalised. The CRT code is a case in point, how many choose to observe the rules.

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