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D&A Marine? Who, what, where?


Catali

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Hi there! Someone please tell me if I’m doing this wrong/right! Tried posting last weekend but I believe there was a major event in canal history taking place (I hope the happy couple are enjoying wedded bliss and everyone else has recovered and rejoined their vessels without mishap or hangover!) so I m going to try picking your collective brains again!

 

We’re looking a boat for sale that has the builder recorded as D & A Marine. Built 1991. Anyone heard of the builders or know anything about them? Could possibly have been a one off build .....though the name suggests more than that.

 

would be very interested to hear any ideas! Thanks!

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Yes.....you could well be right. In which case, what clues could I look for that might identify the builder? (No commissioning plate as far as I know.) If we do buy her I would consider it a matter of honour to investigate her history! 

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3 minutes ago, Catali said:

Yes.....you could well be right. In which case, what clues could I look for that might identify the builder? (No commissioning plate as far as I know.) If we do buy her I would consider it a matter of honour to investigate her history! 

Pretty much by posting detailed pictures of the shape of the bow, stern, swim and any notable features (dragon built in under the tiller arm etc)

 

The immense knowledge on the forum would no doubt (instantly) be able to tell you, not only which manufacturer it was, but the children's name of the guy who swept up the bits off the floor, and the time of day the base plate was welded.

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I did wonder about that.....when I looked at the site I only saw that it was a historic dry dock. Now I look more closely the boat in the picture is very similar ( superficially, at least) to the one we’re looking at. I shall be ringing. Them first thing mon am I think! Good tip off! Thanks!

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On 15/06/2019 at 21:58, Alan de Enfield said:

Could it have been A&D Marine rather than D&A Marine ?

 

http://www.admarineservices.co.uk/about.htm

A&D denying responsibility for the build of Pan91. The boat that looks v similar on their website was built by Union Mill (Wolverhampton) but seems that company didn’t exist until c.1998....too late for Pan91, unless she was a prototype, maybe.

 

The investigation continues! Getting v excited ......survey takes place on thurs am!

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  • 2 weeks later...

If it has a, well, how do I put this.. Mini Ship type feel to it and by that I would mean a fairly straight/upright shell building approach. Then it could be one of Doug's and partner can't remember his partners name, but they were shipwrights and built out of the Hull area in the period you say this is from.

We went to see them in 1990 or 91 can't fully remember, they had several in the workshop, but were.. and I don't mean this in a nasty way, but had a shapeless feel to the shell, they were primarily shell builders, but did some fit-outs, which were to a pretty high standard, using again, people from the ship industry.

 

Look forward to some pics.

 

Oh.. and their mantra was 'mini ship'.

 

Edit: I read this back to myself and 'shapeless' seems unfair to anyone.. When I say shapeless for a NB, ex shipbuilders built in a very 'ship style' way. Practical may be a better word. They did however go for quality welding, good quality plate, plus cutting etc, as that was their forte

Edited by 70liveaboard
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On 27/06/2019 at 13:54, WotEver said:

So... the result was...

Hello Folks!   Sorry for the silence.....immensely busy....but after several trips up and down the country, a very thorough and efficient surveyor’s report, a lot of thought and a huge amount of excitement we are......about to become the new owners of Pan91!

 

Thank you for all the replies..... I’m sure a huge no of questions will follow! Also some pics as we still haven’t got to the bottom of who built her (more on this below!) Looking forward to meeting people and maybe identifying a few of you by your boats along the way as we start Pan’s Progress: The Odyssey later this month!

 

Cheers!

ps Anyone got any thoughts on the route we should take from Droitwich to Lancaster ..... our maiden voyage, so to speak!

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On 27/06/2019 at 18:34, 70liveaboard said:

If it has a, well, how do I put this.. Mini Ship type feel to it and by that I would mean a fairly straight/upright shell building approach. Then it could be one of Doug's and partner can't remember his partners name, but they were shipwrights and built out of the Hull area in the period you say this is from.

 

Ooh, that’s interesting! A good lead to follow up.

 

here are a few pics. (At this point I have to restrain myself from posting a complete album from every possible angle etc!)

 

v excited to hear what folks think......

33C23A86-BA8F-4D47-B1AB-11C2E0FBC0FB.jpeg

EEAA21FA-6F47-48FA-A58E-28458F5E4459.jpeg

D8BB75BA-51FF-4F3F-B893-299615C009C5.jpeg

552F64BA-DE0E-4230-8095-AFABBCD586B8.jpeg

D9C06A35-30C3-4D71-AEE2-FD501BD13D51.jpeg

D2910850-1E40-4D0B-A9F8-8C7C8D663CBB.jpeg

I should add (though patently obvious) the latter photo was take after pressure washing.....the keelblack has failed badly! Won’t be using that product again!!!

Cxxx

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That boat has some similarities to Pat Buckle's boats at Stibbington on the River Nene that I used to know. The bows look a bit more pointed than I remember, however the tip style of the nose looks very familiar. He did use several different shell builders when we bought our first boat from them. Some of those shell builders were borderline financially viable and at least one might have tried to go it alone IIRC. On that basis it may be that they didn't last too long. The one that I am thinking that it may have been built the shell for my first Pat Buckle boat back in 1991 but he warned me not to pay money in full until they had finished the shell because of the parlous state of the shell builder's finances. I wish I could remember what the name of that shell builder was now but I know they went bust eventually.

Roger

 

Edited to add that on the Pat Buckle current website, section '7 Good Reasons to buy' it still has, as the first old review, a review that I must have posted to a canal forum in the 90s. They must have found it somewhere and adopted it because he didn't have a website when we were dealing with him (mounds of paper on his desk was the equivalent of a website in those days ?) and I didn't send my review/opinion to him directly.

See link here:

https://www.pb-narrowboats.co.uk/7-good-reasons/

 

Further edit:

I've just looked at the boat sale details and Pat, at the time, certainly used to use Calcutt Boats (CB Marine) marinised BMC 1.8 diesel engines so it is just possible that a short lived shell builder going it alone venture might have continued with that engine source. Just a thought.

Edited by Albion
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Thats a pretty nice boat.

I'm interested to know about the extension to the back. 

1 minute ago, Paul HD said:

Thats a pretty nice boat.

I'm interested to know about the extension to the back. 

I have just read the info. That is a nice addition.

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@catali

 

Yeah, it's a nice boat and no, having seen it now, it doesn't look like the builders I thought. To be fair yours there has much more shape than the one's they produced. There are some similar things the, what seems, to be a 'robust build' and there is nothing wrong with honest boats, they are the best type. That is similar, however looking at the shape overall, I don't think it is one of theirs. I could be wrong, I didn't see every boat they built by any means, but I did see a trad, semi trad and cruiser, plus their own special range they had. None of those looked as shapely as yours there.

 

I hope everything goes well for you with it. It still stands very well, considering it's 28yrs old. But honest boats are like that, ie. no filler to fall out over the years or fake rivets to pop off rust etc.

 

Good luck with it all.

 

Edit; further to that, the round edge flat bar looks to be fully welded top, but maybe stitched bottom. Pat Buckle's and PKB built very similar style boats in that period. When I was buying from PKB ( it was a toss up between them or Buckle) I took quite a few pics, so will have a look. They also were, as yours is there, fully welded tops and stitched bottoms to the round edge flat bar and the 'big round' to the bow stem post looks like one of those two builders. But there were many builders that did a similar shape too.

Peter brought his up a little to the bow, which isn't really seen there, more like Dave Clarke does with his, or did. Buckle kept his base plate flatter, so could be.

 

(Chris rplying)

 

Edit again:  PKB.. shell (yours isn't PBK, or lets say, I don't think it is).

CNV00021.JPG

Edited by 70liveaboard
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2 hours ago, 70liveaboard said:

@catali

 

Yeah, it's a nice boat and no, having seen it now, it doesn't look like the builders I thought. To be fair yours there has much more shape than the one's they produced. There are some similar things the, what seems, to be a 'robust build' and there is nothing wrong with honest boats, they are the best type. That is similar, however looking at the shape overall, I don't think it is one of theirs. I could be wrong, I didn't see every boat they built by any means, but I did see a trad, semi trad and cruiser, plus their own special range they had. None of those looked as shapely as yours there.

 

I hope everything goes well for you with it. It still stands very well, considering it's 28yrs old. But honest boats are like that, ie. no filler to fall out over the years or fake rivets to pop off rust etc.

 

Good luck with it all.

 

Edit; further to that, the round edge flat bar looks to be fully welded top, but maybe stitched bottom. Pat Buckle's and PKB built very similar style boats in that period. When I was buying from PKB ( it was a toss up between them or Buckle) I took quite a few pics, so will have a look. They also were, as yours is there, fully welded tops and stitched bottoms to the round edge flat bar and the 'big round' to the bow stem post looks like one of those two builders. But there were many builders that did a similar shape too.

Peter brought his up a little to the bow, which isn't really seen there, more like Dave Clarke does with his, or did. Buckle kept his base plate flatter, so could be.

 

(Chris rplying)

 

Edit again:  PKB.. shell (yours isn't PBK, or lets say, I don't think it is).

CNV00021.JPG

Ah now that has stirred further memories. Not long after we had our Pat Buckle built his best interior fitter (who fitted much of our boat) left and set up his own boat building business. His name was Keith (Harris) IIRC (pretty sure about the Christian name but not so sure about the surname, you'll have to bear with me because it was back in the early 90s) and I think that he might have been the PKB builder (might be the K in PKB perhaps). That picture of Lazy Daisy shows the slightly more pointed/streamlined bow that I was talking about rather than the slightly more curved pointed bow that my boat had. It also shows the characteristic tip of the nose that I mentioned in my previous post. As the pool of shell fabricators wouldn't have been huge in that area anyone local building/fitting boats would have used one of the available steel fabricator pool and that could explain the fact that different boat builders, building not too far from Stibbington, had similar looking shells. And yes, Pat's fabricators definitely fully welded the top edge of the rubbing strakes and tack welded the bottom.

Roger

Edited by Albion
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34 minutes ago, Albion said:

Ah now that has stirred further memories. Not long after we had our Pat Buckle built his best interior fitter (who fitted much of our boat) left and set up his own boat building business. His name was Keith (Harris) IIRC (pretty sure about the Christian name but not so sure about the surname, you'll have to bear with me because it was back in the early 90s) and I think that he might have been the PKB builder (might be the K in PKB perhaps). That picture of Lazy Daisy shows the slightly more pointed/streamlined bow that I was talking about rather than the slightly more curved pointed bow that my boat had. It also shows the characteristic tip of the nose that I mentioned in my previous post. As the pool of shell fabricators wouldn't have been huge in that area anyone local building/fitting boats would have used one of the available steel fabricator pool and that could explain the fact that different boat builders, building not too far from Stibbington, had similar looking shells. And yes, Pat's fabricators definitely fully welded the top edge of the rubbing strakes and tack welded the bottom.

Roger

Yes, and we have to remember there were numerous builders that built pretty similar boats to the 'mid to lower mid range' market. I could name probably a dozen I visited and had shells built by a number of them to varying degrees of success, shell wise.

P was Peter and K was his son, not sure of his name.

 

Peter seemed strapped for money most of the time unfortunately and it was around 94 I think he stopped PKB and started building for floating homes iirc. Around that period anyway.

 

Lazy Daisy wasn't mine, it was ours but for a customer.

 

(Chris replying)

Edited by 70liveaboard
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8 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Yes, and we have to remember there were numerous builders that built pretty similar boats to the 'mid to lower mid range' market. I could name probably a dozen I visited and had shells built by a number of them to varying degrees of success, shell wise.

P was Peter and K was his son, not sure of his name.

 

Peter seemed strapped for money most of the time unfortunately and it was around 94 I think he stopped PKB and started building for floating homes iirc. Around that period anyway.

 

Lazy Daisy wasn't mine, it was ours but for a customer.

 

(Chris replying)

Hhmm, I'm really digging back into the memory bank now and wonder if the Keith that I was thinking about might have had a surname of Wood and not Harris.

Roger

 

Edited to add: Just found this short thread from a while back on this forum

 Keith Wood Narrowboats

Edited by Albion
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6 minutes ago, Albion said:

Hhmm, I'm really digging back into the memory bank now and wonder if the Keith that I was thinking about might have had a surname of Wood and not Harris.

Roger

It is quite hard to remember them all, it was a busy period back then for many builders. Wood or Harris don't ring a bell for me, but if they were fitters, I wouldn't really know them.

I remember Buckles place being like a commune..

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1 minute ago, 70liveaboard said:

It is quite hard to remember them all, it was a busy period back then for many builders. Wood or Harris don't ring a bell for me, but if they were fitters, I wouldn't really know them.

I remember Buckles place being like a commune..

Aha, just found this from this forum in 2010 where I could remember the name of the shell fabricator which was Peter Bellaire and his son. Could that have been the PKB boats perhaps?

 Keith Wood Narrowboats

Roger

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Ooh! My head is reeling with all the information! But thanks, guys, for all the input!

Yes, can confirm strakes fully welded on top, stitched below. (Surveyor noted no significant corrosion underneath but is this really a good idea??)

 Calcutt Boats fitted the BMC 1.8 engine and Roger remembers the owner was aHilary Peterswho was involved with Canal Cavalcades.

Ive heard of Pat Buckle but not PKB. Would love her to have been built on the Nene, though, because I sailed that as a child.

 We think very little has been done to her interior since she was built (except being very well looked after). She is fitted out in sapele mahogany. Rather lovely with a beautiful sheen though probably difficult, if not impossible to get hold of these days. And/or a bit pricey!!?

 I can see the resemblance to Lazy-Daisy. The flanges to the fore cabin sides (what on earth do you call those bits? Bet they have a name!) look very similar as well.

.....The thick plottens as they say!

Are any shells still built in this country? Seems a lot are built in Gdańsk and suchlike and shipped over these days!

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50 minutes ago, Catali said:

Ooh! My head is reeling with all the information! But thanks, guys, for all the input!

Yes, can confirm strakes fully welded on top, stitched below. (Surveyor noted no significant corrosion underneath but is this really a good idea??)

 Calcutt Boats fitted the BMC 1.8 engine and Roger remembers the owner was aHilary Peterswho was involved with Canal Cavalcades.

Ive heard of Pat Buckle but not PKB. Would love her to have been built on the Nene, though, because I sailed that as a child.

 We think very little has been done to her interior since she was built (except being very well looked after). She is fitted out in sapele mahogany. Rather lovely with a beautiful sheen though probably difficult, if not impossible to get hold of these days. And/or a bit pricey!!?

 I can see the resemblance to Lazy-Daisy. The flanges to the fore cabin sides (what on earth do you call those bits? Bet they have a name!) look very similar as well.

.....The thick plottens as they say!

Are any shells still built in this country? Seems a lot are built in Gdańsk and suchlike and shipped over these days!

Looking again, I would be on @Albion side, it seems nearer to Buckle than PKB. Looking at the bow returns, Buckle was a little more upright than PKB, I can see the difference in yours and Lazy Daisy.

No real problem for not having the bottom of the bar welded, just 'cheaper' (when built), but it can lead to rust lines as the moisture travels up behind and then brings down the rust, usually forming lines.

Of course you can fill this with a number of products from sillicon onwards, these would give it a good seal. But it's 28yrs old and no problem yet.. so..

 

There are lots of builders in the UK. There are less than a few years back, but still quite a large number.

 

Has it got a certificate or is he going to issue you one. Would like to see some interior shots.

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