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Anyone fitted an electric fuel pump?


Chas78

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9 minutes ago, hider said:

Dad is Sam

7 minutes ago, hider said:

Not really, you see we are both on line, me and my DAD! Just using his log in because again he has had an attempt by the phantom password breaker. Getting really fed up with this person. They seem to be able to use any address when they attempt to log in. 

If Sam is Dad then this hider answering on hider's account.....

1 hour ago, hider said:

Tony, lets see if we can ever agree about anything.

 

Its Thursday, yes?

 

I agree with 1 the spring pressure is constant, but what pressure is the electric pump going to be?

 

The diaphragm will be under constant pressure, they are not designed for this.

Leaking diaphragms are very common on old AC pumps, that's why they sell repair kits, the valves are more reliable.

Oil dilution with fuel is common, I've had 2 cars that had had underbonnet fires due to petrol in the sump. Yes, diesel is less likely but still possible to destroy the engine before the OP realises.

And this is Sam answering on hider's account......

11 minutes ago, hider said:

Not really, you see we are both on line, me and my DAD! Just using his log in because again he has had an attempt by the phantom password breaker. Getting really fed up with this person. They seem to be able to use any address when they attempt to log in. 

 Then I think you have this a little topsy turvy and back to front. He seems to be using your log in. 

 

Gets complicated dunnit 

 

 

12 minutes ago, hider said:

Sounds a bit old fashioned to me. He uses a different name on Thunderboat but I can't stand that site, its puerile.

Some might think you said that to wind some Thunderboaters up and cause some trouble between the two site, fortunately I'm quite sure nobody's fool enough to fall for that. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Oops, wrong log-in!

 

I think you have just busted yourself, Hider Sam!!

 

:giggles:

 

Proves the old adage that you can fool some of the people some of the time... etc

Edited by cuthound
To remove a letter masquerading as a space
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I fitted an extra Delphi fuel filter / water seperator between the tank and mechanical AC lift pump on my Coventry Victor. The mechanical pump struggled to draw the fuel through and the engine got slower over a long period. So i fitted a facet electric fuel pump at the tank outlet to assist the mechanical pump and have had no problems in maybe five years. Is handy in another way because the noise of the pump reminds me to switch the ignition off when i have stopped the engine.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well it looks like this is my problem i suspect this is diesel bug? anyway i have cleared the tank out cleaned the water trap and lines put fresh fuel in and added diesel bug preventing additive just waiting for my new filters and extra filter/trap to arrive i will also be fitting an elec fuel pump hopefully this will sort it ? 

pigeon 012.jpg

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Just remember to in some way drain any water that has collected in the bottom of the tank at least yearly. The bug likes living at the interface between said water and the fuel.

 

I trust the bug treatment was a biocide that will kill any microbes etc. that are hiding in crevices in the tank welds and not just a water "remover". Once you have the whole system bug free the water removers will work but may cause similar problems with emulsions and possibly waxes if you use them with too much water in the tank. They work best with no apparent water,.

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i got the diesel bug really bad one time I used a mix of jet kero and waste oil..............everytime I went to start the boat,the DPA pump would have a frozen metering spindle,its only opened by a flimsy spring,but closed by a rigid link.........apparently this is why jet kero must be changed every month........anyway,the biocide additive did cure the issue....but I must have cleaned the little strainer in the pump inlet 20 times.......Its almost impossible to keep water out of a boat tank.

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i know one boatie listened to a stupid idea to tip a litre of dishwashing liquid into his fuel to solve  the water in the tank issue.........if he ever gets the jelly out of the tank,he might be able to check for water.

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1 hour ago, john.k said:

i know one boatie listened to a stupid idea to tip a litre of dishwashing liquid into his fuel to solve  the water in the tank issue.........if he ever gets the jelly out of the tank,he might be able to check for water.

That's a new one! I wonder what the logic is behind that?
 

Those things that you lower in and leave to soak up water are said to be good, but never used them myself.

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All well that ends well i finally got my BMC running today and must say it sounds better than it ever did must have been all the crud build up over time restricting things or something anyway now with fresh fuel/filters and a good clean out all is running beautifully twas a biatch to bleed though ;)

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  • 2 years later...
On 13/06/2019 at 17:14, Tony Brooks said:

 

1. Why will that be? The mechanical pump uses a spring to deliver fuel so unless the electric pump has a higher pressure the mechanical pump can not deliver any more. The electric fuel pump pressure will just hold the diaphragm down so the mechanical pump free wheels. Much like they do when connected to a carburettor with a  closed float needle valve.

 

I agree with 2 but think you are overstating the danger. Nothing wrong with the OP fitting them in series to see if it cures the problem.

 

Just found this thread after asking about bleeding on another. ASAP seem to think inline fuel pumps are OK:

Search | ASAP Supplies (asap-supplies.com)

 

Very little fire risk if a diesel spill does not go over a real hot area, (Above 50 to 80C according to the exact type of diesel), or is in fine vapour form, as can occur with a broken injector. The BMC series don't seem to have a turbo, so very little chance of a fuel fire.

 

I've fitted inline fuel feed pumps before to avoid the need to use the LP wobble lever, BUT I don't like the type that needs to be left switched on to allow the fuel to pass through.

 

Has anyone actually fitted one, or know of a good explanation about how the ASAP Thornycroft pump can be used etc ?? I must admit to liking that pump because it looks good!

 

 

 

Pump.jpg

Edited by TNLI
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I have an old Beta 35, the mechanical fuel pump was ditched years ago and an electric one fitted.

Dead simple to connect the pipework and have a feed run from the ignition switch.

When changing fuel filters the pump makes life a lot easier bleeding the system.

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6 hours ago, MarkH2159 said:

I have an old Beta 35, the mechanical fuel pump was ditched years ago and an electric one fitted.

Dead simple to connect the pipework and have a feed run from the ignition switch.

When changing fuel filters the pump makes life a lot easier bleeding the system.

 

Yep, I think it is a real good idea to fit a good quality 12v fuel feed pump, like the ASAP series that are not supposed to cause a significant restriction to normal fuel flow. BUT, and yes that was a capital BUT, the old belt and braces approach to BS, (Boating Safety), says that a marine diesel should have both a mechanical lift pump, AND an electric one. If you fit a 12 or 24V fuel pump of the correct self priming, (1.5m only), type, and only leave it switched on during the initial start or fuel filter related servicing, there is no risk of it dumping the entire contents of the fuel tank in the bilges when one of the fuel hoses falls off, or splits apart, then your whole quality of life whilst fiddling around with your beloved donkeys fuel system, will improve in a big way. Sorry, bit of a long sentence that one.

 

If you do decide to go down the more modern belt and braces, non OAFA, (Scandinavian god of engine related swearing), approach, don't forget to fit a nice pretty illuminated 12v push pull switch near or as part of your engine control panel, along with its inline fuse, (I always tape a spare fuse to each fuse), near to the associated main supply or engine panel feed, TRY NOT TO USE 30A FUSES FOR EVERY SINGLE ELECTRICAL OR ELECTRONIC ITEM, just because they were on special from Fleabay or Amazinzone. Yep, buy a nice kit, or little bags of 2, 5, 7.5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30A if you really must. My deck wash and fire fighting pump plan does include a direct feed, (Off the dual start battery selector switch), does need a 50A fuse, and that type needs a very different type of fuse holder), although it is the same type as the 100A engine instrument panel feed, (The glow plugs pull around 40A, so the total panel max draw would be around 50 to 60A. 

 

  It's normally a good idea to use a current clamp type digital multi meter, (Around 25 quid), to determine the actual working current before deciding which fuse to use, and I normally use a rating of double the measured figure for a slow blow fuse. You should also check the devices installation instructions as regards fuse ratings and types. For example most modern electronic devices list a fast blow rating, as does the 230V blow up cabin girl called Dolly, that I've added to my list of Christmas presents.

 

The BETA series are real nice diesel engines and generators, and if I win the Lotto I will donate my old BMC 1500 to a local charity I own, so they can use it to pump out their flooded wine cellar. The keel cooled BETA Greenline 38, (They lie as it's 35HP), fits directly onto my engine bed support plates, if anyone is feeling generous and feels like making a swift donation to a good marine orientated cause, although I must admit it would probably need to to be one of the 45,000, (BBC 2 news said 40,000 last year, but they failed to add nearly 5000 floaters from the satellite count), that departed Venezuela for Trinidad in small boats of every type that has managed to reach Blighty last year. They really understand why there is a need for an armed on station rescue service, owned and operated by my local Caribbean church.

 

Off topic rant that you should not reply to etc.

BP, BG, Mobil, and all the other O&G sector or oil rig production & support companies, should stop insisting that the BBC and ITV news folks should not mention or confirm any press articles posted by Radio Moscow or other non EU or US based news agency, are correct. I am fully aware that they do not like any press articles or TV programs that mention anything related to Trinidad, apart from the weather forecast! 

  Yes, I am also fully aware just how incredibly profitable it will be once the offshore Venezuelan O & G field is connected to the Trinidad fields underwater pipelines, that lead directly to their land based shoreline LNG terminals, oil refinery, and tanker support bases along the SW shore of Trinidad. Alas the T&T fields are off the North Eastern corner of Trinidad, along with their associated helicopter and on station rescue and support vessels.

  This country definitely needs a new source of light and medium crude oil, along with more eco friendly natural gas supplies that do not result in the Siberian mafia trying to start a more serious war with their pipeline afflicted neighbours, that seems to be in the news at present.

  There is no need to wait until the online satellite pictures showing the location of all the Great White shark bleeper tag signals from the US Woods Hole Institute, exceeds the record total of tagged East coast White pointers. The East coast sharks do occasionally visit hells channel just South of Trinidad, mostly during the Spring turtle season, along with some of the larger Tiger sharks that like turtle meat, (I used to check that map before going swimming). 

  Alas as Dell Boy used to say when he stole a few BP share certificates, "Trinidad could be a nice little earner Rodney", so next year they will be millionaire's! 

Edited by TNLI
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Fuses are used to protect the cable, not the appliance being fed. If TNLI wants to use cable capable of carrying twice the appliance current capacity with minimal volts drop (volt drop is the limiting factor in much boat wirirng) the  he is correct about the fuse size but it is not normal practice. It is perfectly safe to fuse below the cable capacity but not above it. If an appliance supplier gives a maximum  fuse size then they are admitting they did not fit  the protection needed to the appliance itself.

 

It is best to ignore the current capacity on the cable drum EXCEPT for determining the maximum allowable fuse size. Do the volt drop calculation for run length instead.

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On 23/06/2019 at 18:26, Chas78 said:

All well that ends well i finally got my BMC running today and must say it sounds better than it ever did must have been all the crud build up over time restricting things or something anyway now with fresh fuel/filters and a good clean out all is running beautifully twas a biatch to bleed though ;)

 

HP fuel pumps or their internal seals fail for a variety of reasons, like wot I ave listed below:

 

1/ Ultra fine Silicon particles in what looks like a type of incredibly fine mud, that gets past far Eastern ultra low quality fuel filters, (Mostly CAV units), and into the HP pump, that then wear out the various moving parts, including seals.

2/ Sustained overheating of the engine bay area, or even the engine itself. A real engine bay must have a proper air intake and fan assisted vent system. Such installations even extend the life of the belts and hoses.

3/ The use of Biocides or other fuel additives that were not made by Liqui Moly, Castrol, Mobil or Shell. Or the use of too much Biocide in a misguided attempt to kill diesel tank bugs or clean out sludge.

4/ Internal corrosion from incorrect storage during winter, as very few canal boat owners bother to correctly inhibit their diesel engine, or simply run it at least every month.

5/ Poor quality red or marine diesel fuel that lacks any type of lubricity additive, like those included in major brand road diesel fuel supplies.

6/ Poor quality engine oil or filters.

 

Nothing last forever, so I would be surprised if any HP pump was working correctly after around the 20 year figure that is sometimes quoted as the average figure for a full overhaul of a marine diesel that has been in daily use.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Fuses are used to protect the cable, not the appliance being fed. If TNLI wants to use cable capable of carrying twice the appliance current capacity with minimal volts drop (volt drop is the limiting factor in much boat wirirng) the  he is correct about the fuse size but it is not normal practice. It is perfectly safe to fuse below the cable capacity but not above it. If an appliance supplier gives a maximum  fuse size then they are admitting they did not fit  the protection needed to the appliance itself.

 

It is best to ignore the current capacity on the cable drum EXCEPT for determining the maximum allowable fuse size. Do the volt drop calculation for run length instead.

Thanks TB, yes you are correct as I should have said, AND cable, although when you are installing a new electric or electronic system or device, it's normal to use cables that are far higher in terms of their continuous rating. Alas in most electrical tasks you do not know what that figure is, as the cables or wire are already in place, although you can cut the wire open, and measure the diameter to allow you to look up what the rating of the wire is. Now I wonder how many folks do that, so it's just a case of using the figure associated with the system or device and not using a feed cable that is thinner than the one that it has fitted, or the associated terminal type fittings diameter. 

  Most but not all modern electrical or electronic devices will run in an OK manner until the voltage drops below around 9V, and voltage drop issues are normally a big boat problem. The most common fault is the connections or plugs corroding or being of such a poor quality that they cause a voltage drop. It's rare for the wire to be the cause unless it's untinned Copper wire that has suffered from Osmosis or cracked insulation, (The dreaded Black Copper issue).

 

When you decide on which fuse, you should read the devices instructions for the rating, AND double check the figure for the main feed cable if it's heavy enough to require one, or the main panel connecting wire. Alas many folks do not even add an extra fuse or circuit breaker, and accept the fact that most main supply panels are rated at 20 or 30 Amps. That can result in the device overheating or even catching fire if it had a 2A fuse required listed.

 

When I design a boats electrical system it often has 2 CB's and one fuse between the battery and the device, or 1 CB and 2 fuses on occasions. So for example the small red LED light above my engine panel has an little inline 2A fuse, that connects to a sealed inline 15A fuse in a small sub panel of switches and fuses. That panel is wired direct to the engine start battery selector with a 70A rated cable, (Continuous), The main feed supply fuse next to the selector is currently a 100A one, cos the glow plugs draw 40 and if I was starting up with all the devices on the engine panel turned on, I would be drawing a total of 60A until the glow plug relay cuts to off, (100A rated relay). At present I can't find a 75A fuse, so I've used a 100A one until I do find one. The only other ones I have are 50A fuses for the screw down covered feed units.

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On 13/06/2019 at 16:14, Chas78 said:

I have never sucked water and crud out of the tank all the filters were replaced last year and the sediment trap was also cleaned out i was that sure it was out of fuel i put 50 ltrs in the other day now i wish i hadn't listening to your advice as i now also suspect crud/water may be the culprit :blush:

I always thought my tank was pristine until Tooleys sucked out about 3 litres of gunge from my tanks.

 

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