Confused over licences ?!

[David Mack]

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Apologies I was looking at the Thames.

The principal still applies - get a short term C&RT licence and then renew with a Gold (1st Jan) licence later.

Or buy a 12 month CRT canals and rivers licence, then on 1 Jan buy a 12 month Gold licence from CRT and they will refund the unexpired portion of the canals and rivers licence pro rata. This will work out cheaper overall than buying a short term licence.

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Apologies I was looking at the Thames.

The principal still applies - get a short term C&RT licence and then renew with a Gold (1st Jan) licence later.

Or buy a 12 month CRT canals and rivers licence, then on 1 Jan buy a 12 month Gold licence from CRT and they will refund the unexpired portion of the canals and rivers licence pro rata. This will work out cheaper overall than buying a short term licence.

[NewCanalBoy]

But what about the dates I have quoted ?

[pearley]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Or buy a 12 month CRT canals and rivers licence, then on 1 Jan buy a 12 month Gold licence from CRT and they will refund the unexpired portion of the canals and rivers licence pro rata. This will work out cheaper overall than buying a short term licence.

Or buy a 12 month CRT canals and rivers licence, then on 1 Jan buy a 12 month Gold licence from CRT and they will refund the unexpired portion of the canals and rivers licence pro rata. This will work out cheaper overall than buying a short term licence.

But not so good if you want to trsnsfer from a CRT licence on 31 Dec and move to an EA Anglian licence.

[DandV]

19 hours ago, David Mack said:

Or buy a 12 month CRT canals and rivers licence, then on 1 Jan buy a 12 month Gold licence from CRT and they will refund the unexpired portion of the canals and rivers licence pro rata. This will work out cheaper overall than buying a short term licence.

Or buy a 12 month CRT canals and rivers licence, then on 1 Jan buy a 12 month Gold licence from CRT and they will refund the unexpired portion of the canals and rivers licence pro rata. This will work out cheaper overall than buying a short term licence.

An advantage of this, is that future CRT licences will also be on a 1st Jan renewal date, so each year prior to 1st Jan you just need to decide if your intended next year's  cruising includes EA waters, then buy a gold, or otherwise just stick with a standard licence. No refunds or paying for unused EA time involved.

[adam1uk]

I'm bookmarking this thread so I can quote it the next time someone complains about CRT having a monopoly.

[NewCanalBoy]

So its coming to the end of the year (obviously).

 

Do I have to start filling in application to purchase a gold licence for the year ahead now or can I purchase one it late March (delaying the payment) and still get a refund on my East Anglican waterways licence from between 1st Jan - 31st March 2020 ?

 

*I know the gold licences are paid in full and only go from 1st Jan - 31stDec every year. *

**I don't want to start using other rivers/canals/ until springtime**

[GUMPY]

If you have a CART licence its refundable if the gold  overlaps

EA licences are not refundable if they have run their term

I does say here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/boat-registration-refunding-or-transferring-your-registration

that they will refund you if you purchase gold but I suspect you will have to do it this week to get that.

However it also says in the document that if there is less than 6 months to run on the licence the refund is 0%.

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Loddon

[pearley]

EA rules are not particularly user friendly if you want to move permanently onto their waters. Anglian Waterway only run 12 months from 1 April or 6 months from 1 September. If you have previously bought a visitor licence then you cannot buy an EA one.

So you can't go down to the Nene in July, get a refund on your CRT licence, buy a EA visitor licence then on 1April or 2 September buy a full EA one.

Why!

[The Dreamer]

On 12/06/2019 at 17:11, NewCanalBoy said:

Seems a bit bonkers for a small stretch of rivers ?

I recently made a similar point in a letter to Waterways World, regarding the Avon Navigation Trust.  If the CRT charged, per mile of navigation, the same that ANT do, it would cost me over £30k per year to licence our 69 footer!

[Scholar Gypsy]

I would get a gold licence from 1st January/

I have been based in Ely for the last five years, and with a gold licence even though I have only been on CRT waterways in 2015 and 2019.  As others have said it's just too much of a faff to swap back and forth between EA (Apr-Mar) and Gold (Jan-Dec).

 

Note also that there is a separate licence requried for the Cam, but only £50 or so for an annual visitor licence (up to 90 out of  365 days).

 

And I think that by the time you are cruising you will need to get a licence for the Middle Level. They are still working out the details, including for any transit arrangements for people with EA Anglian or Gold licences.

[NewCanalBoy]

2 hours ago, Loddon said:

If you have a CART licence its refundable if the gold  overlaps

EA licences are not refundable if they have run their term

I does say here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/boat-registration-refunding-or-transferring-your-registration

that they will refund you if you purchase gold but I suspect you will have to do it this week to get that.

However it also says in the document that if there is less than 6 months to run on the licence the refund is 0%.

 

Ok cheers, looks like i'm screwed then. Nothing to do but buy a gold licence when I need to move it.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, NewCanalBoy said:

my East Anglican waterways licence

 

Lol!

 

 

3 hours ago, NewCanalBoy said:

Do I have to start filling in application to purchase a gold licence for the year ahead now or can I purchase one it late March (delaying the payment)

 

The latter. You can buy a Gold licence any time of year but the price is always the same and it always expires on Dec 31st of the year in which you buy it.  

[OldGoat]

The EA is a government body

It's practically impossible to change anything because it has to go through Pariliament

It costs EA a load of money to prepare and get the legislation approved. The last attempt prior to 2010 fiddled about for ages, got mucked about by some committee and failed in some minor points

 

EA doesn't really want to have anything to do with navigation - its job is water management not boat management, but because of the Thames Conservancy Acts has to follow the basic rule.

 

The Gold Licence came about through a previous waterway manager who wanted to encourage mor NBs on to the river.

 

Because of the rules (above) the only way was to follow the Thames (etc) rules - it's really an extension of short term licences.

 

Be very, very grateful for YOUR arrangements. For me as a Thames boater I have to pay a large amount to have a Gold - you get it for relative peanuts.

 

So there

Pah!

[Scholar Gypsy]

2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

The EA is a government body

It's practically impossible to change anything because it has to go through Pariliament

It costs EA a load of money to prepare and get the legislation approved. The last attempt prior to 2010 fiddled about for ages, got mucked about by some committee and failed in some minor points

 

EA doesn't really want to have anything to do with navigation - its job is water management not boat management, but because of the Thames Conservancy Acts has to follow the basic rule.

 

The Gold Licence came about through a previous waterway manager who wanted to encourage mor NBs on to the river.

 

Because of the rules (above) the only way was to follow the Thames (etc) rules - it's really an extension of short term licences.

 

Be very, very grateful for YOUR arrangements. For me as a Thames boater I have to pay a large amount to have a Gold - you get it for relative peanuts.

 

So there

Pah!

I seem to remember getting a VAT  invoice a few years ago for my gold licence, which showed that (as the boat is kept on the Fens) the bulk of the money went to the EA, not to CRT. Your basic point is correct though, that a gold licence is a very good deal for someone who uses CRT waterways a good proportion of the time. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I seem to remember getting a VAT  invoice a few years ago for my gold licence, which showed that (as the boat is kept on the Fens) the bulk of the money went to the EA, not to CRT. Your basic point is correct though, that a gold licence is a very good deal for someone who uses CRT waterways a good proportion of the time. 

Presumably your VAT invoice was for an amount of 'zero' as the EA have previously stated that boat registration is Zero rated.

 

This has been a bone of contention for a long time as BW/C&RT charge VAT for boat registrations, but claim they can as it is a 'Rivers Only' LICENCE - of course it is nothing of the sort.

 

C&RT are fully aware of this as in an Email Susie Mercer (Boating Trade Manager) sent to Phil Spencer on 4/9/2012  she stated :

 

"...…………...there is one fly in the ointment - VAT. The EA does not charge VAT because a "registration" is zero rated. A boat "licence" is standard rated as you know ……….."

Edited December 26, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Scholar Gypsy]

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Presumably your VAT invoice was for an amount of 'zero' as the EA have previously stated that boat registration is Zero rated.

 

This has been a bone of contention for a long time as BW/C&RT charge VAT for boat registrations, but claim they can as it is a 'Rivers Only' LICENCE - of course it is nothing of the sort.

 

C&RT are fully aware of this as in an Email Susie Mercer (Boating Trade Manager) sent to Phil Spencer on 4/9/2012  she stated :

 

"...…………...there is one fly in the ointment - VAT. The EA does not charge VAT because a "registration" is zero rated. A boat "licence" is standard rated as you know ……….."

I'll try and find it - it's on the boat I think - and will reply in due course.

[Scholar Gypsy]

On 27/12/2019 at 09:11, Scholar Gypsy said:

I'll try and find it - it's on the boat I think - and will reply in due course.

Amazingly, I found it - on my first visit of 2020 (it's rather windy today on the Great Ouse). 

 

My 2019 gold licence was apportioned roughly £200 to CRT and £1000 to EA (Anglian). I have declared Ely as my "home mooring". 

Both portions were given the same VAT code, ie the standard rate of 20%.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

Amazingly, I found it - on my first visit of 2020 (it's rather windy today on the Great Ouse). 

 

My 2019 gold licence was apportioned roughly £200 to CRT and £1000 to EA (Anglian). I have declared Ely as my "home mooring". 

Both portions were given the same VAT code, ie the standard rate of 20%.

Thanks for remembering to look and reply.

 

It looks like the EA may be ignoring their own rules regarding charging VAT on a registration.

[Scholar Gypsy]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Thanks for remembering to look and reply.

 

It looks like the EA may be ignoring their own rules regarding charging VAT on a registration.

The VAT position could be quite complicated. The entire invoice is issued by CRT on their VAT number. There would be a number of ways of treating the transaction between CRT and EA: that could be exempt or taxable but it doesn't make any difference to the amount of cash the EA receive

.

[NewCanalBoy]

On 26/12/2019 at 15:52, Loddon said:

 

However it also says in the document that if there is less than 6 months to run on the licence the refund is 0%.

 

Well I got an answer to my December email yesterday.

Apparently they will refund me three months of my licence if I prove a gold licence to them.

 

Even more confusing now !!

 

Have to phone them now to treble check.

 

Still don't know if that means I should have done it before the end of December or not.