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Justin Smith

Chargeable mooring on the towpath side

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We were cruising past Market Bosworth the other week and noticed that, just north of the bridge, there were chargeable moorings, apparently owned by Bosworth Marina.

How can moorings on the towpath side be owned by anyone (other than the CRT), or in fact chargeable ?

 

On the subject of Mkt Bosworth, it`s pathetic that there`s only about three moorings there* and it`s too shallow to moor beyond.

We were going to stop off there on the way south (no turning point to go back north to the chargeable moorings even if one was prepared to pay) and go into the town for an Indian but were unable to find moorings. So that`s about £50 less for the Mkt Bosworth economy ! Thus I`d have thought the council should be sponsoring CRT to put some more in ?

 

* excluding two for the water point, though because of the position of the taps and the bridge it`d not be straightforward to get two decent length boats rewatering at the same time anyway !

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5 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

How can moorings on the towpath side be owned by anyone (other than the CRT), or in fact chargeable ?

It's quite common.  A lot of on-line moorings are leased to boat clubs, boatyards etc.  They pay many thousands of pounds a year for the privilege of having towpath sections reserved as private moorings, for which they can charge.

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6 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

How can moorings on the towpath side be owned by anyone (other than the CRT), or in fact chargeable ?

There is a lot of 'towpath' that is let out by C&RT to commercial operators.

 

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At bosworth when the marina was built the yard had to buy the land from where their bridge starts and the entrance in order to divert the towpath. By default they ended up with this length. Useless to them except to charge for on towpath use. Whilst i am no way a fan of what happened there, and loss of moorings i dont see much choice.

charging gives the people in the flats opposite a change of view too. Previously there was a problem with the odd badly maintained boat sitting for weeks or months opposite the flats. Certainly i am well aware of complaints by some residents, because it was me they asked for advice.

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37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There is a lot of 'towpath' that is let out by C&RT to commercial operators.

 

Quite so, in many many places. About half a mile of it at Thrupp just as a for instance.

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4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Quite so, in many many places. About half a mile of it at Thrupp just as a for instance.

Does the Boat Club (which keeps its section of towpath in exemplary order, by the way) count as a "commercial operator"?

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Just now, Athy said:

Does the Boat Club (which keeps its section of towpath in exemplary order, by the way) count as a "commercial operator"?

If someone is renting the towpath and then sub-letting it to boaters as moorings it can only be classed a commercial operation.

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48 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

It's quite common.  A lot of on-line moorings are leased to boat clubs, boatyards etc.  They pay many thousands of pounds a year for the privilege of having towpath sections reserved as private moorings, for which they can charge.

 

The CRT selling off towpath mooring rights, isn`t that the thin end of a very long wedge ? After all boaters pay large amounts to allow them to use the canals and moorings on the towpaths, in theory, what`s to stop CRT selling off huge amounts to towpath ? It`ll raise funds yes, but also reducing the availability to boaters who pay their licences..... What are the rules or guidelines over how much they can sell off ?

Edited by Justin Smith

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6 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

What are the rules or guidelines over how much they can sell off ?

They cannot sell off any of the land without approval of Government. (Secretary of State for DEFRA)

they can 'rent' out as much as they wish (don't forget they rent out on-line moorings themselves)

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If someone is renting the towpath and then sub-letting it to boaters as moorings it can only be classed a commercial operation.

In a way, perhaps.

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Just now, Justin Smith said:

 

TH CRT selling off towpath mooring rights, isn`t that the thin end of a very long wedge ? After all boaters pay large amounts to allow them to use the canals and moorings on the towpaths, in theory, what`s to stop CRT selling off huge amounts to towpath, it`ll raise funds yes, but also reducing the availability to boaters paying their licences..... What are the rules or guidelines over how much they can sell off ?

Most of the leases predate CRT by decades - some of them even predate British Waterways! - so it's not a new and growing problem.

 

Boaters don't pay "large amounts" to CRT - it's around 10% of CRT's income from licences and around another 10% from moorings - including these leased sites.

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5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If someone is renting the towpath and then sub-letting it to boaters as moorings it can only be classed a commercial operation.

In our case, the boat club is a Limited Company, run by the members, with a lease from CRT of the length which it then rents out to the club members. Certainly a commercial operation, non profit making maybe, but certainly regarded as commercial.

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10 minutes ago, sharpness said:

In our case, the boat club is a Limited Company, run by the members, with a lease from CRT of the length which it then rents out to the club members. Certainly a commercial operation, non profit making maybe, but certainly regarded as commercial.

I don't understand Athy's "In a way, maybe"

 

If money changes hands in return for a service it is a 'commercial transaction'

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23 minutes ago, sharpness said:

In our case, the boat club is a Limited Company, run by the members, with a lease from CRT of the length which it then rents out to the club members. Certainly a commercial operation, non profit making maybe, but certainly regarded as commercial.

Exactly, and a very common arrangement.

 

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I don't understand Athy's "In a way, maybe"

"Those who can, do." ...

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6 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

 

The CRT selling off towpath mooring rights, isn`t that the thin end of a very long wedge ? 

I first came across private moorings on the towpath while moving from London to Cheshire in the mid 80s. 

I tried to tie up at Stone opposite the old brewery and found the towpath was Waterways' moorings and full.

 

A few days later I arrived at my new home moorings (paid for in advance) at Bunbury above the staircase, and guess what? I found I was renting a bit of towpath!

That was 34 years ago.

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1 hour ago, sharpness said:

In our case, the boat club is a Limited Company, run by the members, with a lease from CRT of the length which it then rents out to the club members. Certainly a commercial operation, non profit making maybe, but certainly regarded as commercial.

I hope it is profit making otherwise it will not survive in the long term, as capital works are needed. What i suspect you mean is non profit distributing. 

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I think the word is 'mutual'. 

 

While the lease and rental of mooring to members of a club may be a commercial activity, my previous point is that the actual money comes from boaters but is not counted as such.

 

There are also some long established commercial operations where the site is leased from CRT and the percentage of the rent paid by boaters is likely to be more than the modern connection fee arrangement. 

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10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I don't understand Athy's "In a way, maybe"

 

If money changes hands in return for a service it is a 'commercial transaction'

Possibly, yes.

But a boat club run by and for its members, on a non-profit making basis, would not be universally regarded as a commercial operation. Whether that's what happens at Thrupp I don't know.

 

10 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

 

"Those who can, do." ...

Perhaps you could explain that comment.

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12 minutes ago, Athy said:

But a boat club run by and for its members, on a non-profit making basis, would not be universally regarded as a commercial operation.

I disagree, I don't think your understanding of the term would be the 'universally' accepted.

 

Definition :

A business transaction is an event involving an interchange of goods, money or services between two or more parties. The transaction can be as brief as a cash purchase or as long-lasting as a service contract extending over years. The business transacted can be between two parties engaged in business and conducting the transaction for their mutual benefits, or between a business entity, like a retail shop, and a customer.

 

A General Rule in Determining if it is a Commercial Transaction

When determining whether an action is a commercial transaction, consider whether there's a way of entering it in an accounting record. It's pretty clear that if a person giving a speech is being paid for it, the payment needs to be entered somewhere – either as additional income in the CEO's personal tax records or as a taxable payment to the corporation. On the other hand, if there's no straightforward way of entering the event into accounting records, it almost certainly is not a commercial transaction.

 

The boat club will have accounts which must be published, they must show their income from membership fees, moorings etc etc so this can only be a commercial transaction. No 'maybe' or 'possibly' it is 'commercial'.

 

Try a little research looking at legal definitions of 'commercial transaction'.

 

Here is one for you as a 'starter'.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/commercial-transaction.html

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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17 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

We were cruising past Market Bosworth the other week and noticed that, just north of the bridge, there were chargeable moorings, apparently owned by Bosworth Marina.

How can moorings on the towpath side be owned by anyone (other than the CRT), or in fact chargeable ?

 

On the subject of Mkt Bosworth, it`s pathetic that there`s only about three moorings there* and it`s too shallow to moor beyond.

We were going to stop off there on the way south (no turning point to go back north to the chargeable moorings even if one was prepared to pay) and go into the town for an Indian but were unable to find moorings. So that`s about £50 less for the Mkt Bosworth economy ! Thus I`d have thought the council should be sponsoring CRT to put some more in ?

 

* excluding two for the water point, though because of the position of the taps and the bridge it`d not be straightforward to get two decent length boats rewatering at the same time anyway !

To be fair for your £5 at Bosworth you do get use of the boaters lounge, free wi fi , use of showers, elsan and you buy tokens to use laundry facilities.   There is also a small shop with a good selection of basics.  

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18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There is a lot of 'towpath' that is let out by C&RT to commercial operators.

 

 

17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If someone is renting the towpath and then sub-letting it to boaters as moorings it can only be classed a commercial operation.

 

11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I don't understand Athy's "In a way, maybe"

 

If money changes hands in return for a service it is a 'commercial transaction'

The language has crept from commercial operator to commercial transaction via commercial operation. 

 

Does that mean the school PTA is a commercial operator because it charges 50p for admission to its Fete?  Or an otherwise non-trading charity that pays bank charges? Whilst a charity (or a club) may enter into commercial transactions, it would not usually be called a commercial operator.   

40 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The boat club will have accounts which must be published, they must show their income from membership fees, moorings etc etc so this can only be a commercial transaction. No 'maybe' or 'possibly' it is 'commercial'.

 

Registered Charities are required to keep accounts and make them available - but that does not in itself make one a commercial operator 

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28 minutes ago, Tacet said:

 

 

The language has crept from commercial operator to commercial transaction via commercial operation. 

 

Does that mean the school PTA is a commercial operator because it charges 50p for admission to its Fete?  Or an otherwise non-trading charity that pays bank charges? Whilst a charity (or a club) may enter into commercial transactions, it would not usually be called a commercial operator.   

Registered Charities are required to keep accounts and make them available - but that does not in itself make one a commercial operator 

Of course charities are commercial operators, seeking donations, grants from foundations, maybe some earned income. The difference is that any "profit" gets recycled for the charitable aims. 

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