Traditional Boats... a sense of entitlement?

[Chris Williams]

50 minutes ago, dmr said:

their approach to meeting another boat at a bridge 'ole etc is to slow down but keep slowly coming forward

They also don't appreciate that you slow down at bridge 'oles, when they are following you.   I was clouted and had my helm bent by 'Tadworth' at a bridge 'ole.  She wasn't even loaded.

[johnmck]

A sense of entitlement and rudeness is certainly not confined to Hobby historic boats. But when one encounters such behaviour from the crew of one, it is more tiresome due to one's expectations.

Last year on the Shroppie, having left Norbury heading south, we saw a boat ahead of us rise in the water. Then an ex working boat appeared at full tilt. His bow wave hit us before he came fully into view. The boat ahead was tossed around like a cork, then it was our turn.

The steerer maintained his speed, with his back to us,

oblivious to the chaos he was causing, to say nothing of the breaking wash.

Simply rude. But more disappointing given the nature of the boat.

[Chris Williams]

Lots of complaints, but no names, which are writ large on the sides.

Do CRT actually do anything if you complain about someone dropping paddles or ramming gates ?

Take a photo.

I was moaned at for speeding - no moored boats, just some passing craft who yelled "The speed limit is four mph".  Lucky to do that, mostly.

[mark99]

6 hours ago, tree monkey said:

I do and it was a memorable meeting

Did he convert you?..... 

[mark99]

I find the sneering re hire botes the most divisive. I hired for years and was astounded when I hired a hire bote that had no sign of being a "hire bote" and all of a sudden everyone treated me differently!

 

A bit like motorcycles. I make a point of nodding to the moped riders etc when on the hyper bike for similar reasons.

Edited June 12, 2019 by mark99

[Tuscan]

3 hours ago, johnmck said:

His bow wave hit us before he came fully into view. The boat ahead was tossed around like a cork, then it was our turn.

 

Well I’ve tried to get Aber upon the plane several times but never succeeded, this must have been amazing to see. 

[TheBiscuits]

My personal favourite is the "hobbystoric" boater we met quite a few times between Burscough and Wigan, who insists (via steering) that he needs the deep channel, but never seems to know where it is.

 

The time before last we met him, he was insisting on steering right up the middle of the water - at one of the flashes near Ell Meadow, so he was trying to force me into 3" (yes, inches not feet!) of water, and was about 2 narrowboat widths out of the deep water on my side!

 

I have since decided that next time he's being an idiot, I'm going to blast him with two short horn signals and go past him on the "wrong" side.   I'm pretty sure he's not rude, just confused, but as he won't ever make eye contact and just twitches while steering, I have not yet had the chance to gently point it out to him.

 

A good friend did take a damn good scrape of blacking off him recently ... it's what happens when deep-draughted boats get forced into the shallows by a boat in the wrong place and get stuck in silt.

 

 

 

 

[roland elsdon]

Most of the houses in this village are victorian, lovely people, however there are some new infill- rich entitled newcomers coming here and taking over.There are also about 10 ex council houses dont know why they allowed them, with their old cars parked all over the grass.

2 manor houses too, dont know who owns them I dont make assumptions but a lot of the money round here came from slavery.

they are the ones who ignore the speed limits im sure.

[frahkn]

18 hours ago, dmr said:

I have concluded that a large percentage of boaters are unable to use reverse to stop, or won't because they fear they will end up across the canal, so their approach to meeting another boat at a bridge 'ole etc is to slow down but keep slowly coming forward and hope they can somehow steer round and then in behind the oncoming boat. Sometimes they will even frantically wave the oncoming boat onwards hoping to get it out of the way before they really do have to stop. A problem is that most assume the oncoming boat is no more than 57 foot so their plans goes horrible wrong when they meet a 70 .

 

..............Dave

Yes, happens all the time. It doesn't help if your boat is low with 12 feet of tug deck which they apparently just don't see at all.

[Steilsteven]

It always amuses me how some people ( quite a few it seems ) buy a boat and suddenly become 'experts'.

Worst of all are those who learnt their boating skills as volunteers and then slag off the very organisation they previously belonged to.

 

Keith

[stagedamager]

On 12/06/2019 at 10:40, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Actually, I've had that happen to me too. I challenged them and they came up with a feeble-sounding justification, something to do with long-lining IIRC.

 

But the deed was done and the lock refilling while I was arguing about it. Can any of the historic boaters here offer a reasonable explanation for this behaviour? 

 

 

There are times when at a narrow lock it is more practical to bring a butty through straight after. Some locks it is very tricky to get the butty out the lock tail to allow passage of another boat, therefore splitting the tow. Locking down is slightly easier depending on conditions below the lock, I.e Alrewas when locking onto the river, I would always insist on bringing the pair through as one. If the upper pound is on weir, then no water is wasted but in this day and age it is a "rule" which is spouted in any situation. People working a pair should always check with boaters waiting and explain the situation, as many modern boaters think you're just towing a broken down boat! Having said that, if circumstances allow, and it is safe to do so, split the pair to allow others to pass in the opposite direction. 

 

Kind regards

 

Dan

[furnessvale]

18 hours ago, johnmck said:

A sense of entitlement and rudeness is certainly not confined to Hobby historic boats. But when one encounters such behaviour from the crew of one, it is more tiresome due to one's expectations.

Last year on the Shroppie, having left Norbury heading south, we saw a boat ahead of us rise in the water. Then an ex working boat appeared at full tilt. His bow wave hit us before he came fully into view. The boat ahead was tossed around like a cork, then it was our turn.

The steerer maintained his speed, with his back to us,

oblivious to the chaos he was causing, to say nothing of the breaking wash.

Simply rude. But more disappointing given the nature of the boat.

I believe that is called a "soliturn wave" or similar.  It is a most useful indicator that a deep draughted boat is approaching, and often seen in front of loaded dredging pans.  When I receive one when moving, it tells me what to expect coming the other way.

 

It is no indicator that the boat in question is speeding or causing a breaking wash.  The steerer of such a boat can hardly be expected to move at such a pace as to not cause a soliturn wave "in case" there is a poorly moored boat somewhere round the next bend. 

 

The issue of the breaking wash is a different matter of course.

 

George

Edited June 13, 2019 by furnessvale

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I believe that is called a "soliturn wave" or similar.  It is a most useful indicator that a deep draughted boat is approaching, and often seen in front of loaded dredging pans.  When I receive one when moving, it tells me what to expect coming the other way.

I don't know what it is called but - Exactly right !! (but not only deep draughted boats)

You can see a bit of 'disturbed' water, even around a corner', which is a good indication of something coming.

It is quite easy to see (as long as the water is 'quiet' and undisturbed - a lot of traffic will obviously make things more difficult).

 

I would compare it almost to looking like 'wind blowing over the water'.

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I believe that is called a "soliturn wave" or similar.

Soliton wave.

 

It was discussed in a thread on flyboats doing over 10 mph a while back ...

 

 

 

[WotEver]

21 hours ago, nicknorman said:

One does on occasion find astonishingly miserable, grumpy and unfriendly boaters operating all types of boats...

One also finds them on here on occasion. 

[Chris Williams]

53 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You can see a bit of 'disturbed' water, even around a corner', which is a good indication of something coming.

You also feel it if you are tied up.  Likewise when a lock is operated, quite a long way away. 

[roland elsdon]

1 hour ago, stagedamager said:

There are times when at a narrow lock it is more practical to bring a butty through straight after. Some locks it is very tricky to get the butty out the lock tail to allow passage of another boat, therefore splitting the tow. Locking down is slightly easier depending on conditions below the lock, I.e Alrewas when locking onto the river, I would always insist on bringing the pair through as one. If the upper pound is on weir, then no water is wasted but in this day and age it is a "rule" which is spouted in any situation. People working a pair should always check with boaters waiting and explain the situation, as many modern boaters think you're just towing a broken down boat! Having said that, if circumstances allow, and it is safe to do so, split the pair to allow others to pass in the opposite direction. 

 

Kind regards

 

Dan

We gave up in 1996 with the butty. Hostility was increasing, it was ok on the grand union but the minute we went anywhere else it got too hard for 2 people.

cannot imagine what places like hillmorton would be like now.

[Slim]

On 12/06/2019 at 15:32, roland elsdon said:

Actually the  entitled drivers have moved to mercedes. Bmw are old hat and you cant drive a vag car  after dieselgate, your children become anxious, go on strike at school , fail , and become politicians.

I remain unconvinced about the Merc v BMW point.

 

Frank

Volvo driver.  ( No trilby, no pipe and keeping quiet about the slippers. ) 

[Jim Batty]

I don't know about hobby historic boaters ... but the rudest boater I've ever shared a lock with was an 'old hand' who'd been on the cut over 40 years and had built his own boat from the base plate upwards. He complained about the 'waviness' of our cabin roof (built by Mel Davis) and commented, 'The next time I see Mel I'll bring it up'. He then insisted we both pull out of the lock together (as I suppose real traditional boaters did/do alongside their butties) ... and these being beat up old K&A gates ... they wouldn't open all the way ... so we both got stuck between them. After we extracted ourselves from the lock it quickly became time to 'stop for an early lunch' and let him continue on his own. 

 

We also accompanied a real, loaded, working boat through half a dozen locks on the GUC traveling north from Apsley ... whose skipper insisted we leave every set of top gates open as we proceeded. This finally irked us enough to resort to stopping for 'an early dinner' ... and let him continue on his own. And he was off with a snort! 

[Captain Pegg]

There are a couple of contradictory themes that crop up throughout the posts in this thread.

 

First is a desire to categorise the majority of steerers of ex-working boats as hobbyists or middle class folk with some spare cash to burn. Then an expectation that the crews of such boats will have some enhanced level of skills compared to other boaters; certainly skills that more than compensate for the fact such boats are generally harder to work. Indeed, very few of these boats are worked professionally so why would there be such an expectation?

 

It’d be far more harmonious to simply talk about canal craft as boats and their occupants as boaters about which we should have no more expectation than that the steerer will be in control of the boat and the crew will treat other boaters with courtesy. Same applies to hirers, Hudsons, widebeams and purple boats.

 

(Although I’d be grateful if you don’t test my new found diplomacy by rocking up in a purple Hudson).

 

JP

 

 

 

 

[max's son]

[Captain Pegg]

10 minutes ago, max's son said:

Hooligans!!

 

Looks like fun. I’m guessing it’s a family outing on the Severn?

[nicknorman]

48 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

There are a couple of contradictory themes that crop up throughout the posts in this thread.

 

First is a desire to categorise the majority of steerers of ex-working boats as hobbyists or middle class folk with some spare cash to burn. Then an expectation that the crews of such boats will have some enhanced level of skills compared to other boaters; certainly skills that more than compensate for the fact such boats are generally harder to work. Indeed, very few of these boats are worked professionally so why would there be such an expectation?

 

It’d be far more harmonious to simply talk about canal craft as boats and their occupants as boaters about which we should have no more expectation than that the steerer will be in control of the boat and the crew will treat other boaters with courtesy. Same applies to hirers, Hudsons, widebeams and purple boats.

 

(Although I’d be grateful if you don’t test my new found diplomacy by rocking up in a purple Hudson).

 

JP

 

There is a desire to categorise the majority of steerers of historic boats as hobbyists or middle class folk for a good reason - because they are! With the exception of coal/fuel boat, pretty much all other historic boats are operated as a hobby. And to afford a historic boat you have to be reasonably wealthy, surely (I’ve never bought one, but I’m told so). For most people owning a historic boat, it is not their primary residence and so they must have sufficient cash not only to have a house but also a relatively pointless (in practical terms) historic boat. “Middle Class” was your term and of course it doesn’t necessarily align with “wealthy” so I’d prefer the latter term.

 

i don’t think there has been much expression of an expectation of above average handling skills. That seems to be your invention.

 

What you haven’t mentioned is the theme of this thread - the attitude of a significant proportion of those owning historic craft, compared to Mr Average owning a clonecraft.

Edited June 13, 2019 by nicknorman

[max's son]

18 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Hooligans!!

 

Looks like fun. I’m guessing it’s a family outing on the Severn?

This was back in the mid 60s near the Northwick slip, I remember the Steamers also made as big wash was great for surfing

on in a canoe you didn't have to paddle

[Captain Pegg]

8 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

There is a desire to categorise the majority of steerers of historic boats as hobbyists or middle class folk for a good reason - because they are! With the exception of coal/fuel boat, pretty much all other historic boats are operated as a hobby. And to afford a historic boat you have to be reasonably wealthy, surely (I’ve never bought one, but I’m told so). For most people owning a historic boat, it is not their primary residence and so they must have sufficient cash not only to have a house but also a relatively pointless (in practical terms) historic boat. “Middle Class” was your term and of course it doesn’t necessarily align with “wealthy” so I’d prefer the latter term.

 

i don’t think there has been much expression of an expectation of above average handling skills. That seems to be your invention.

 

What you haven’t mentioned is the theme of this thread - the attitude of a significant proportion of those owning historic craft, compared to Mr Average owning a clonecraft.

Indeed. My point was they aren’t particularly different from other boaters which your post essentially confirms. There are references to expectations of ex-working boats in the thread which is what I picked up on.

 

I don’t observe especially different behaviours from crews of ex-working boats compared to any other type of boat. The vast majority of all boaters are at least competent and courteous, many are a delight to meet. There are occasional exceptions but on the rare occasions I have encountered such in recent years I can’t think of one that involved an ex-working boat.

 

When it comes to negative comments - or uninvited ‘advice’ from other boaters - that pretty much never happens when I am out on Vulpes but I’ve rarely done a days volunteering without such on ex-working boats. There is a different perception.

 

JP