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Newly restored 19th-century German ship sinks after collision


David Mack

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Missed a tack apparently ,i.e. going against the wind in a series of zigs and zags, tried to 'go about' by quickly steering into the wind then heaving all the sails across so it would sail off towards the bank on the left but instead of the boat doing that the bow slowly reverted to its old course and it sailed right under the bow of the ship. (happy to be corrected by proper sailors) Hell of a shame.

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27 minutes ago, Bee said:

Missed a tack apparently ,i.e. going against the wind in a series of zigs and zags, tried to 'go about' by quickly steering into the wind then heaving all the sails across so it would sail off towards the bank on the left but instead of the boat doing that the bow slowly reverted to its old course and it sailed right under the bow of the ship. (happy to be corrected by proper sailors) Hell of a shame.

Either that or playing chicken with a container ship in a restricted channel quite literally "took the wind out of their sails!"

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1 hour ago, Bee said:

Missed a tack apparently ,i.e. going against the wind in a series of zigs and zags, tried to 'go about' by quickly steering into the wind then heaving all the sails across so it would sail off towards the bank on the left but instead of the boat doing that the bow slowly reverted to its old course and it sailed right under the bow of the ship. (happy to be corrected by proper sailors) Hell of a shame.

 

And illustrates why the old adage that "steam gives way to sail" doesn't always apply.

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Under pressure to perform a quick tack, and what can go wrong, can go so easily very wrong. With a full length keel these old boats do take a lot of room to get across a tack. Compared to a modern sail craft their turning radius is huge.  A successful tack can only be initiated if they had sufficient boat speed to start with to take them right through, With a big ship bearing down though they would have had little choice on timing. They  needed  a crew experienced enough to manage the timing of the head sail changeover impeccably.  Even if they had done everything right they could have still been defeated by  unstable wind conditions anywhere through the manouevre. Sailing old boats is a real challenge. Many many sailing boats have been lost "caught in irons"  going through a tack. Luckily in this case no one was hurt, and hopefully the money and skills can be found to restore such a beautiful boat to sailing condition. Far to precious to loose.

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1 minute ago, DandV said:

Under pressure to perform a quick tack, and what can go wrong, can go so easily very wrong. With a full length keel these old boats do take a lot of room to get across a tack. Compared to a modern sail craft their turning radius is huge.  A successful tack can only be initiated if they had sufficient boat speed to start with to take them right through, With a big ship bearing down though they would have had little choice on timing. They  needed  a crew experienced enough to manage the timing of the head sail changeover impeccably.  Even if they had done everything right they could have still been defeated by  unstable wind conditions anywhere through the manouevre. Sailing old boats is a real challenge. Many many sailing boats have been lost "caught in irons"  going through a tack. Luckily in this case no one was hurt, and hopefully the money and skills can be found to restore such a beautiful boat to sailing condition. Far to precious to loose.

That does sound like a badly planned manoeuvre to me, certainly when close to a container ship in a restricted channel.  Why even try to tack at that point?  

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4 minutes ago, DandV said:

Under pressure to perform a quick tack, and what can go wrong, can go so easily very wrong. With a full length keel these old boats do take a lot of room to get across a tack. Compared to a modern sail craft their turning radius is huge.  A successful tack can only be initiated if they had sufficient boat speed to start with to take them right through, With a big ship bearing down though they would have had little choice on timing. They  needed  a crew experienced enough to manage the timing of the head sail changeover impeccably.  Even if they had done everything right they could have still been defeated by  unstable wind conditions anywhere through the manouevre. Sailing old boats is a real challenge. Many many sailing boats have been lost "caught in irons"  going through a tack. Luckily in this case no one was hurt, and hopefully the money and skills can be found to restore such a beautiful boat to sailing condition. Far to precious to loose.

 

As a complete layman it strikes me as daft to have been sailing around in the general path of that ship in the first place. 

 

 

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Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

As a complete layman it strikes me as daft to have been sailing around in the general path of that ship in the first place. 

Have you never been on the Solent Mike?

 

F'ing chaos on a warm bank holiday!

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Its possible that the folk handling the jib sails hauled them over too early and backed them before the bows had passed through the eye of the wind and so they bore away on their old tack again Quite a common mistake especially with beginners when there's a bit of a panic on like trying to avoid something.

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Sailing boats used to worry me on the River.  Then I realised the thing to do was keep going in a straight line.  They would head straight for me, then tack with inches to spare.  They knew what their boats could do.  Seems these Germans didn't.

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2 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

Sailing boats used to worry me on the River.  Then I realised the thing to do was keep going in a straight line.

 

Exactly what I decided too. In fact I think holding one's course is exactly what they want you to do.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

As a complete layman it strikes me as daft to have been sailing around in the general path of that ship in the first place. 

 

 

Sailing a boat that size in any seaport will put you in potential conflict with bigger ships. Unfortunately conditions and other traffic often constrain timings.  To me though, it is far preferable to keep those boats sailing, to preserve the sailing skills, and boat husbandry skills required to keep it in functional trim, rather then just as an exhibition piece. Exactly the reasons as to why it is so important to keep working narrowboats, functional, rather then dead museum pieces.

8 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Its possible that the folk handling the jib sails hauled them over too early and backed them before the bows had passed through the eye of the wind and so they bore away on their old tack again Quite a common mistake especially with beginners when there's a bit of a panic on like trying to avoid something.

Been there done that, a very credible scenario in the circumstances. Also a big ship carries it's own wind, that could disrupt even the most perfectly executed tack.

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21 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

Sailing boats used to worry me on the River.  Then I realised the thing to do was keep going in a straight line.  They would head straight for me, then tack with inches to spare.  They knew what their boats could do.  Seems these Germans didn't.

My son took this photograph on the Thames last May (2018) when we were recovering my boat back to the midlands (bought that day). Although not immediately clear we were heading towards a sailing competition where we were marshalled through by a rib with an outboard = flat out and straight ahead with the sail boats darting around us. Personally I found the rowing eights around Oxford more of a nuisance as they were both fast and unpredictable :captain:149150938_OTLEYheadingupstreamontheThames05May2018-undernewownership-sailingclub(JacobHarrison).jpg.b682b3d74eab6966aae9c47b652cccc9.jpg 

Edited by pete harrison
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2 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

Personally I found the rowing eights around Oxford more of a nuisance as they were both fast and unpredictable

Yes, I had one overtake me, get in front of me, then dropped their oars and stopped dead..  In front of a coal boat.  Couldn't swear at them - they were girls.

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26 minutes ago, Chris Williams said:

Sailing boats used to worry me on the River.  Then I realised the thing to do was keep going in a straight line.  They would head straight for me, then tack with inches to spare.  They knew what their boats could do.  Seems these Germans didn't.

Modern sail boats can tack with inches to spare. On the restored 58ft 1894 cutter I sail on, we do our utmost to give ourselves boat lengths of room to manouevre but still find ourselves in scary close call situations when a modern yacht throws a tack close by and then calls for right of way expecting from us a slick, tight tack away without allowing for our large turning radius. I was once on the Soren Larson an ex Baltic trading boat, that featured on the Onedin Line when a racing centre board yacht called for starboard and got very very upset this lumbering old sail ship did not magically assume the same manouerability of his centrboarder.

Edited by DandV
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