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Monthly Cost Sanity Check


Heffalump

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Hi.

 

I have also been putting together indicative costs and I've broken it down into Fixed and Variables.

Obviously certain items are personal guesstimates (eg food) so you can decide upon your own expenses here.

 

Annualised it's around 11/12 K all in, but this includes a mooring at 3K so again your choice on this.

Hope this helps.

 

All costs per annum            
FIXED       VARIABLE Costs of Living avg through seasons
Insurance 160     Coal 400  
CRT Licence 850     Gas 150  
Mooring 3000     Electricity 120  
Blacking 300     Diesel 600  
Servicing 300     Food 5000  
Emergency cover 150     TV/Int/Phone 500  
Misc for main & upgrade 500     TV Lic 155  
             
  5260       6925  
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  • 2 weeks later...

thanks for this really useful thread - great for those still 'thinking'.....

 

What would everyone say should be put aside for batteries?  How often roughly do you need to change them?  assuming just standard ones...

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7 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

thanks for this really useful thread - great for those still 'thinking'.....

 

What would everyone say should be put aside for batteries?  How often roughly do you need to change them?  assuming just standard ones...

 

How long is your piece of string? And what sort of string is it? 

 

At first you’ll probably wreck a set or two in six months but as your pocket forces you to learn how to keep them charged, you’ll graduate to buying really expensive Trojans once every <many years>.  

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15 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

How long is your piece of string? And what sort of string is it? 

 

At first you’ll probably wreck a set or two in six months but as your pocket forces you to learn how to keep them charged, you’ll graduate to buying really expensive Trojans once every <many years>.  

Don't forget also, how well you mollycoddle take care of said 'piece of string' 

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As a share boat owner @robtheplod your boat will be active 48? weeks of the year so you can get a pretty good idea of boat running costs by multiplying out your existing annual costs and what they do/don't cover.

 

I do suspect that those who are looking to liveaboard without any previous experience of boating costs (small boat outright or share) may seriously underestimate the costs of maintenance and upgrades. A big boat is not like a car, it's like a house and repairs/improvements cost serious money.

 

If someone starts with a good 60-70' narrowboat they can probably get away with £50 a month on paint, plumbing, ropes, covers, woodwork, vents, batteries, electrics, for a short while as the boat deteriorates and then after some time something big will go wrong that demands 10 or 100 times that figure. This is the element that some seem to be overlooking but those individuals and syndicates with experience will be thinking of budgets over a period longer than a  year. 

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Everybody's ideal boat for their lifestyle will be different so no figures are going to be one-size-fits-all.  Possible to live on a 25' GRP cruiser, 50'NB, 60' widebeam. All and nobody's budgets are correct. So, being quick to point out some possible flaws in other posters' sums, I'll pin my figures to the mast and suggest my hypothetical necessary budget for my hypothetical perfect boat.

 

Wouldn't want to liveaboard full time with no land base but would be on it round the year, half the time. The perfect boat at the moment would be approx 55'x6'10", modern build, modern engine,  20' two berth cabin, open canvas covered hold as workshop, bike & canoe storage etc, 100w solar panel on roof, 330Ah of house batts, small 12v fridge for summer, no TV, small inverter, no shoreline or 240v wiring, 12v wiring for engine, house lights etc, USB sockets, gas for stove/oven only, hot water from calorifier off engine, wood stove, northern mooring, out most of the time but not doing insane number of miles. I would do most work myself, barring the engine, below waterline welding and gas, it would be blacked by myself every second year but drydocked annually just to check below waterline, topsides painted DIY ongoing.

 

For what some will think sounds a rather spartan use of a big steel hull, and for non liveaboard use, I would still expect to need to pay

 

CRT fees under £1k 
Non-residential CRT or marina mooring of £1750-2.5k (up north)

Insurance say £2-300 
Rescue cover £2-300 (I appreciate a bit of help when things go wrong beyond my capabilities)
Drydock days and a few days in marinas other than home mooring, say £500 per year (worked out over 2 yr DIY blacking cycle)

BSS cert and minor bits for £60 per year (worked out over 4 year cycle) 

Engine servicing, basic filters, oil, grease, perished hoses etc DIY basis £120

Diesel <£500, coal <£150, gas <£150, cassette loo so no pumpout charges. Internet from tethering on existing phone, no TV, no shoreline electric costs. Things like food, phone bill,  council tax etc that some liveaboards may include are part of my land life so are not included

 

And on top of all that there would need to be the BOAT contingency fund of say £2500 per year and starting upfront with more.

This would be to cover any necessary professional attention to engine, steelwork and gas. It would also cover DIY repairs, batteries, oils, paints, timber, broken pumps and plumbing, worn ropes, canvas, fenders, cabin internals and everything else. Unless the mooring was very expensive this would need to be the biggest expense in my calculations each year. If a surplus developed over the years greater than say the cost of supply and fitting of a new engine then monthly contribs to this could possibly be reduced a bit.

 

All in these would add up to around £7500/yr or £625/mo and this would be a simple, non livedaboard boat!

 

Currently in absolutely no position to get or run a boat like this but figures are based on experience of a few types of leisure boats and the cost of boating. More complicated systems, luxurious cabins, heavier use and less DIY work undertaken would all add to the hypothetical BOAT contingency costs for sure. 

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23 hours ago, BilgePump said:

As a share boat owner @robtheplod your boat will be active 48? weeks of the year so you can get a pretty good idea of boat running costs by multiplying out your existing annual costs and what they do/don't cover.

 

I do suspect that those who are looking to liveaboard without any previous experience of boating costs (small boat outright or share) may seriously underestimate the costs of maintenance and upgrades. A big boat is not like a car, it's like a house and repairs/improvements cost serious money.

 

If someone starts with a good 60-70' narrowboat they can probably get away with £50 a month on paint, plumbing, ropes, covers, woodwork, vents, batteries, electrics, for a short while as the boat deteriorates and then after some time something big will go wrong that demands 10 or 100 times that figure. This is the element that some seem to be overlooking but those individuals and syndicates with experience will be thinking of budgets over a period longer than a  year. 

that's so much, very helpful answer.. :)

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9 hours ago, BilgePump said:

CRT fees under £1k 

Non-residential CRT or marina mooring of £1750-2.5k (up north)

Insurance say £2-300 
Rescue cover £2-300 (I appreciate a bit of help when things go wrong beyond my capabilities)
Drydock days and a few days in marinas other than home mooring, say £500 per year (worked out over 2 yr DIY blacking cycle)

BSS cert and minor bits for £60 per year (worked out over 4 year cycle) 

Engine servicing, basic filters, oil, grease, perished hoses etc DIY basis £120

Diesel <£500, coal <£150, gas <£150, cassette loo so no pumpout charges. Internet from tethering on existing phone, no TV, no shoreline electric costs. Things like food, phone bill,  council tax etc that some liveaboards may include are part of my land life so are not included

 

And on top of all that there would need to be the BOAT contingency fund of say £2500 per year and starting upfront with more.

 

All in these would add up to around £7500/yr or £625/mo and this would be a simple, non livedaboard boat!

...although the liveaboard thing cuts both ways. If living aboard year-round meant you were able to do without a home mooring, that's up to £2500 in the kitty (by your figures), of which you might well need less than half for additional diesel, gas, coal, and servicing. (Yes you might want/need to spend more upfront on a less 'simple' boat with more solar etc., but if we're talking about annual costs...)

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For some years now I've kept a detailed record of everything spent on the boat and boating, and I do mean everything, from sandpaper to mooring fees.  I don't include items that would have had to be purchased were we living at home, such as groceries and household consumables, so the total is simply the cost of having a boat.  Over the 7-8 years I've been doing this the annual cost averages out at about £4500.  (That's for a 45 foot narrowboat, we're running a much smaller vessel at the moment so I expect the cost to be under £4k now.)   Ok to many folk that is still a lot of money but I'm always pleasantly surprised how relatively cheap it is.   

 

We're not full time liveaboards but my sense is that actually living on the waterways may reduce your overall expenditure as it is harder to spend (waste) money - compared to having a land base.  I used to maintain that a boat is just as expensive as a house long term but I've sort of changed my view on this over the last couple of years looking at what we've had to spend on our house in that period.

 

  

 

 

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On 04/07/2019 at 09:19, BilgePump said:

As a share boat owner @robtheplod your boat will be active 48? weeks of the year so you can get a pretty good idea of boat running costs by multiplying out your existing annual costs and what they do/don't cover.

 

 

I tried that when I had a share in a share boat . It came to £12,000 pa.

 

The reason for this is the huge mileage covered by share boats (1000-1500 hours pa), plus a cabin repaint, blacking and new batteries pretty much every year, all charged at boatyard prices because most shareholders are not prepared to do any DIY.

 

Now that I own my own boat the costs are more like £4,000  pa, including professional blacking and repaints but most other stuff I DIY.

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10 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

I tried that when I had a share in a share boat . It came to £12,000 pa.

 

The reason for this is the huge mileage covered by share boats (1000-1500 hours pa), plus a cabin repaint, blacking and new batteries pretty much every year, all charged at boatyard prices because most shareholders are not prepared to do any DIY.

 

Now that I own my own boat the costs are more like £4,000  pa, including professional blacking and repaints but most other stuff I DIY.

Ouch! thanks for confirming, 'heavier use and less DIY work undertaken would all add to the hypothetical BOAT contingency costs for sure.' I've seen mention of shares down around the £50-60/mo mark for 1/12 of something in the 50-60' range but I assumed complexity of boat, DIY contribution and any home mooring can account for a wide range of share boat running costs.

Getting your costs down to £4k on your own boat shows how it is certainly possible to make significant savings without neglecting the boat.

 

If £4k was my annual max budget (still for the ideal 55' and with 50% time aboard) I would be splitting it at approx £1250 licence, insurance and BSS, £500 dry dock, DIY blacking and a few marina days, no home mooring, £500 diesel, coal+gas, leaving £1750 for engine servicing, BOAT maintenance and contingency (nearly £150 per month so still a fair chunk of change).

 

As a reference the leisure use 60' NB that we had until last year would probably need a barebones budget in 2019 of about £1250 licence, insurance and BSS, £2k mooring, £250 diesel, coal and gas and £1500 pa min towards dry dock, engine servicing ,maintenance & contingency, £5k or just over £400/mo in total but £500 would be healthier or £6k pa (£100/ft) tallying with Neil2's figure of £4.5k for 45'. We still did most of the work, there was no TV etc, little electrical demand as I could manage fine without the fridge on and it did relatively few miles each year so the engine didn't get many hours of use,  a calorifier, woodburner and gas oven. In essence there was a lot less to go wrong than the complicated systems a modern liveaboard boat may now have but the two house batteries still needed replacing every couple of years, so say £75pa of the budget.

 

I tend to want to go to a boat year round to de-stress, so hire/share alone wouldn't work for me. On the other hand, I only need a tiny boat to still allow year round fun and a budget of under £150/mo all in would cover licence, mooring, ins, BSS, slipways and petrol for a simple old GRP boat up to 23', but this is still at the camping boating end of the scale and in no way would I propose attempting to live full time on something so small, but some do. Electric hookups, marina laundries and club showers can make them far more comfortable but I can still happily spend a sunny week on boats even smaller, under 20', pootling, fettling and reading, without standing headroom, fixed electric or gas and away from the luxuries of a mooring. Just that life doesn't allow that too often when work needs doing in the real world!

 

Liveaboard or not, CC'ers can remove home mooring costs. Rescue cover is an extra that some may not need/want. Engines and systems like to be run on a regular basis so 52wks on the boat isn't necessarily the worst thing if the engine isn't running as much as share/hire. Depends on mileage/power/engine hours, number and lifestyle of the crew. A couple with two dogs, travelling every day, and family members coming over all the time, will put a bit more wear and tear on a boat than the single person at work all day, just leaving their marina mooring once a week for a few miles. My suggested figure of around £2500 pa into the maintenance and contingency is on the high side but was also intended to build up a cash pot reserve over the years for those 'once in a lifetime' big problems. Once the contingency fund is large enough this budget could be reduced a bit until a big problem eats out a chunk of it. Of course (as MtB and others mentioned) you then have to get the maintenance and contingency pot prepared asap for the next 'once in a lifetime' problem.

 

Liveaboard isn't by definition hammering a boat, more caring custodian. If you're on the boat all the time you can address the small things quickly - minor vent leaks before they become a pain in the posterior of badly stained ply headlining if you don't see or fix the leak for some time. Boats are definitely cases of a stitch in time saves nine. Doing as much DIY as you can/want to do but being prepared to pay for pro services when you need is essential to keeping costs down in the short and long term. I'm sure 90% of owners have a few jobs that they really should do on their boat, mostly trivial but safety, the hull and engine ones should always be prioritised, and most owners will. The more time on it, the more time available to dedicate to its maintenance with free labour (and with boatyard prices what they are, you need to do as much as you can).

 

tldr; The OP's overall BOAT fund of up to £700/mo and up for the DIY side still seems to have a perfectly healthy budget for the boat, use and inclusions being proposed.

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  • 4 months later...

Ok, so I've only been here for 5 minutes and I'm resurrecting an old(ish) thread!

 

Just wanted to reiterate previous thanks for everyone's calculations, I'm currently pricing up CC'ing as an option for the next chapter of my life and this is very reassuring. 

 

As a land lubber my current rent is £1750 (yep!), with no room to maneuver and no way of saving I'm caught in a trap. The boat would have to be financed but even if I can get my monthly expenditure to be around my current rent then I have to be onto a winner, even with some unexpected costs. Plus once the boat is paid off then its everyone off to the Bahamas! 

 

Is there any way to make a thread like this 'sticky'? 

 

Thanks guys!

John

 

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On 05/07/2019 at 12:07, cuthound said:

 

I tried that when I had a share in a share boat . It came to £12,000 pa.

 

The reason for this is the huge mileage covered by share boats (1000-1500 hours pa), plus a cabin repaint, blacking and new batteries pretty much every year, all charged at boatyard prices because most shareholders are not prepared to do any DIY.

 

And how much of that was the management fee?

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On 03/06/2019 at 20:59, Heffalump said:

License: £93 (Based on 70', prompt payment)

Insurance: £17 (Based on £200 annually, quoted on a 1990 boat worth 30k with 5k contents cover fully comp)

Diesel: £100 (Based on liveaboard battery charging, travelling a few miles once a week or fortnight)

Coal: £40 (Based on a couple of bags a week during the winter, supplemented with free wood)

Gas: £13 (Figure pulled out of thin air, expecting to use gas purely for cooking)

Blacking: £30 (Based on 70' every 3 years, although I plan on doing this ourselves, I've costed for having someone else do it as you never know)

BSS: £4 (Based on £150 every 4 years)

Servicing: £5 (Based on oil and filters a couple of times a year)

Coal is too high - 25kg every ten days is more than sufficient for four months of the year. So aggregated across twelve months, and you are in the ball park of £15.

 

diesel seems a little low, I would suggest, that if you run for a conservative three hours a day this is about five litres, or £5 at a 50/50 declaration. So £150 is more like it.

 

you have nothing for anodes, £60 each every three years.

 

gas, maybe a full bottle every two months, so more like £16.

 

blacking appears not to allow for lift out costs of about £300.

 

nothing for general maintenance.  Fenders, paint, fuses, bulbs, pumps, bits that fall off (that you’ll never know what they do, but had better replace anyway), &c.

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18 hours ago, chilli said:

Ok, so I've only been here for 5 minutes and I'm resurrecting an old(ish) thread!

 

Just wanted to reiterate previous thanks for everyone's calculations, I'm currently pricing up CC'ing as an option for the next chapter of my life and this is very reassuring. 

 

As a land lubber my current rent is £1750 (yep!), with no room to maneuver and no way of saving I'm caught in a trap. The boat would have to be financed but even if I can get my monthly expenditure to be around my current rent then I have to be onto a winner, even with some unexpected costs. Plus once the boat is paid off then its everyone off to the Bahamas! 

 

Is there any way to make a thread like this 'sticky'? 

 

Thanks guys!

John

 

No disrespect but if your rent is 1750 you must be in both a big  place and expensive area.

 

if you wish to keep a small 70 ft boat in that area the mooring fee will not be 3000 they could be 12000.

 

That changes the equation a bit.

Of course if you have no family no need to be in an area and can cc you can reap the fiscal change.

My  vintage non residential 57 ft boat cost about 6000 a year to keep.

Then every 5 years or so you empty your saving account into the canal.

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On 07/12/2019 at 04:16, roland elsdon said:

No disrespect but if your rent is 1750 you must be in both a big  place and expensive area.

 

if you wish to keep a small 70 ft boat in that area the mooring fee will not be 3000 they could be 12000.

 

That changes the equation a bit.

Of course if you have no family no need to be in an area and can cc you can reap the fiscal change.

My  vintage non residential 57 ft boat cost about 6000 a year to keep.

Then every 5 years or so you empty your saving account into the canal.

No disrespect at all! I'd love to say that I live in something palatial but no, just a two bed in West London. That's the going (extortionate) rate. Double glazing and doors that close properly not included.

 

From a purely cynical financial point of view at £6000 I'd be 'up' after 4 months.

 

I'd be CCing as I agree about the mooring fees. Just another money making opportunity for investors. Something I'd rather be rid of.

 

But above all else this is a definite lifestyle decision, with all its unique advantages and disadvantages. Its not a 'floating apartment' as lots of the adverts like to claim. And its a life I think I could enjoy!

 

 

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