Second day living onboard my narrowboat... A little lost!

[peterboat]

16 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I paid £1000 for mine.

I posted a thread a few weeks ago saying how it could be done for £500. Pays for itself in 2-3 years by running the engine less.

Bob its pointless, because demand is low for them we get them cheaper ? no matter how hard we try to show boaters how good they are others will always latch on to the negatives, often lumping all Lithium batteries together, which as we know is all wrong, Anyway virtual greenie for your post as I have ran out and enjoy your easy peasy life due to LifePo4s

[MtB]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Bob its pointless, because demand is low for them we get them cheaper ? no matter how hard we try to show boaters how good they are others will always latch on to the negatives, often lumping all Lithium batteries together, which as we know is all wrong, Anyway virtual greenie for your post as I have ran out and enjoy your easy peasy life due to LifePo4s

 

I totally agree.

 

Most boaters are such luddites they won't even fit solar panels, preferring to run their engines, ruining warm summer evenings. So trying to get across to most boaters how easy lithiums make boating life from a battery management POV is pretty pointless really.

 

All they look at is the price, and you can almost hear the minds all slamming closed. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman

[mrsmelly]

55 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Bob its pointless, because demand is low for them we get them cheaper ? no matter how hard we try to show boaters how good they are others will always latch on to the negatives, often lumping all Lithium batteries together, which as we know is all wrong, Anyway virtual greenie for your post as I have ran out and enjoy your easy peasy life due to LifePo4s

Honest question. My batts will be due for renewal next year I reckon after three years of sterling use, partly on hook up. I can replace all for for a further 2/3 years for less than 400 quid in twenty minutes. How much will 440 a/hrs of lithium cost me including a rewire and all the gadgets to ensure I dont over/under charge them? Obviously they will have to live on the swims as I have nowhere near the charging engine to put them or space. Would all this be doable with the standard alternators etc. I would not be doing this work myself so who could do it and what would the total cost be for all batteries/gadgets/wiring and labour, if I had the space. Taa muchly. I am not a dinosaur by the way, I dont ride a horse or have a 1930s engine in my boat so just wondered.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Obviously they will have to live on the swims as I have nowhere near the charging engine to put them or space.

 

You can't use lithiums then.

 

 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You can't use lithiums then.

 

 

Thanks, that was what I thought. Just thought whilst typing this though, these new fangled lectric cars use lithium batteries I think?? If so when parked outside in a cold winter minus ten etc what happens to the batteries??

[nashworth]

18 hours ago, mickp said:

Without looking in manual for bvm ,the voltage reading showing in pic is the upper and lower alarm settings,cant remember how you switch out of setup mode but when out of there you use the up down arrows to show volts amps state of charge time left to go etc .i only ever bother watching volts amps .

Thank you for recognising this! I had no idea... I've now managed to read the status of my batteries & charge them fully. 

Thanks again!

[Dr Bob]

15 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Obviously they will have to live on the swims as I have nowhere near the charging engine to put them or space.

Let me address this point first and then deal with the rest.

In your position I would do a hybrid system, ie leave your current set up in place and just bolt in parallel.

2 options. 1) Put them in the swim and isolate the bank when it freezes and just use the LA's. I doubt that the batteries will be below freezing often (or for long) if you are CCing and running the engine an hour each day.

2) Better option is to put them inside. My inverter is circa 6 ft forward of the batteries. My Li's are 10ft infront of the inverter....under the bed. I link them into the current batteries near the inverter. They are fine there and will not see sub zero temps. Are you sure you have no space forward of the inverter. These take up less space.

I will draft a response to the remainder of your post and point you at the thread I started on a cheap way of doing lithiums in a while, so I dont derail this thread for the OP.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Dr Bob

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, nashworth said:

Thank you for recognising this! I had no idea... I've now managed to read the status of my batteries & charge them fully. 

Thanks again!

But how do you know that they are fully charged ?

 

The meter only knows what you have told it the capacity is.

If you 'told it' that the capacity was 400Ah and it is now only 200Ah, then it will show 100% charged at an actual 50% state of charge.

[nashworth]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But how do you know that they are fully charged ?

 

The meter only knows what you have told it the capacity is.

If you 'told it' that the capacity was 400Ah and it is now only 200Ah, then it will show 100% charged at an actual 50% state of charge.

Hmm... Maybe i'm still entirely lost then! I haven't inputted the capacity myself. I'm going off what has already been written into the system by the previous owner. I wouldn't know where to begin, I'm finding this all like a foreign language to be honest! 

Thanks, 

Naomi 

[Dr Bob]

35 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Honest question. My batts will be due for renewal next year I reckon after three years of sterling use, partly on hook up. I can replace all for for a further 2/3 years for less than 400 quid in twenty minutes. How much will 440 a/hrs of lithium cost me including a rewire and all the gadgets to ensure I dont over/under charge them? Obviously they will have to live on the swims as I have nowhere near the charging engine to put them or space. Would all this be doable with the standard alternators etc. I would not be doing this work myself so who could do it and what would the total cost be for all batteries/gadgets/wiring and labour, if I had the space. Taa muchly. I am not a dinosaur by the way, I dont ride a horse or have a 1930s engine in my boat so just wondered.

Have a look at the thread I started a few weeks back.

 

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/101348-an-affordable-way-to-fit-lithium-batteries/&tab=comments#comment-2306050

 

This details how you could get the benefits of lithiums for £500 or less. I am working on the basis of just having one 160Ahr battery (ie 4 cells to give 12V). You could of course double up and go to 320Ahr or up again to 480Ahr. The 2^nd hand cost was circa £330 per 160Ahr for the batteries

You dont have much to loose to just try a 160Ahr system. That should give you all the benefits of low engine running but you will need to keep an eye on voltage (but no more than I used to do with my LA's).

It will obviously cost you to get someone to do it for you......but it is actually very easy to do it yourself. I was not confident I could change my existing LA's but to just add an extra circuit proved very easy. All I had to learn was how to make a good crimp on a 50mm cable.......and Simon (  @MoominPapa) showed me how to do that. In terms of kit, you do need a BMV or meter that has a relay to control a switch and you need a switch. I paid £150 for my switch but both Moominpapa and Tom and Bex use a much cheaper one. You need a manual isolation switch £20-£50 and I would put in a cell voltage monitor/alarm £25. It is very simple to wire it in and NO danger to your current set up. There are Peter, Tom, Simon and myself on here who could help you.

I would think about doing it this year and then utilise your existing batteries for a number of years to come. What have you got to loose? The cost of one set of cheapo LA's. The benefit 5-10 hours a week less engine running. Thats 150 hrs a year less engine which is not far off £200 in fuel, oil, filters etc. The payback doesnt bother me.....its the simplicity. My main worry now is where the next water point is. I just dont think about replacing power any more.

By the way, Lithiums are happy at low temps, you just cant charge them below 0 C. Just isolate the bank.

Maybe best to answer in the other thread rather than derailing this thread.

[mrsmelly]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But how do you know that they are fully charged ?

 

The meter only knows what you have told it the capacity is.

If you 'told it' that the capacity was 400Ah and it is now only 200Ah, then it will show 100% charged at an actual 50% state of charge.

I used to have one of those thingies. IIRC it tells you voltage and amps charging so its easy enough to see if batteries are charged/charging. I think this bit works independantly of any settings?

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, nashworth said:

Hmm... Maybe i'm still entirely lost then! I haven't inputted the capacity myself. I'm going off what has already been written into the system by the previous owner. I wouldn't know where to begin, I'm finding this all like a foreign language to be honest! 

Thanks, 

Naomi 

 

You need to programme it with the CURRENT battery capacity.

 

Very simplistically : 

 

As a battery is discharged / recharged, discharged / recharged, left discharged, charged etc etc...……………. it produces 'sludge' that sits in the bottom of the battery and reduces the battery capacity.

 

Think of a 5 litre bucket, when new it holds 5 litres, after you have mixed a few bucket loads of cement in it there is some old cement left stuck in the bottom, that now means that it will only hold (say) 3 litres of water.

 

You need to identify 'how much cement' is stuck in the bottom of your battery and re-programme the monitor so it knows what capacity the batteries are NOW.

8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I used to have one of those thingies. IIRC it tells you voltage and amps charging so its easy enough to see if batteries are charged/charging. I think this bit works independantly of any settings?

Yes - if you have the knowledge to know what voltage and current you should be seeing - AND you know the current battery capacity (because you are looking for a charging current of 1% of the capacity)

 

I programmed my BMV at 70% of the 'rated' battery capacity, until I could actually determine the actual capacity

 

The BMV 'default' setting is a capacity of 200Ah

 

You also need to set the 'charge voltage' and the 'Tail current'

 

.2.1 Battery settings
______________________________________________________________
01. Battery capacity
Battery capacity in amp hours
Default Range Step size
200 Ah 1 – 9999 Ah 1 Ah
______________________________________________________________
02. Charged Voltage
The battery voltage must be above this voltage level to consider the battery as fully charged.
The charged-voltage-parameter should always be slightly below the end of charge voltage of the charger (usually 0.2V or 0.3V below the ‘float’ voltage of the charger).
See section 3.7 for recommended settings.
BMV-700 / BMV-702
Default Range Step size
See table, sect 3.7 0 – 95 V 0,1 V
BMV-700H
Default Range Step size
158,4 V 0 – 384 V 0,1 V
______________________________________________________________
03. Tail current
Once the charge current has dropped to less than the set tail current (expressed as percentage of the battery capacity), the battery is considered as fully charged.
Remark:
Some battery chargers stop charging when the current drops below a set threshold. The tail current must be set higher than this threshold.
Default Range Step size
4% 0,5 – 10% 0,1%

Edited June 4, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

17 minutes ago, nashworth said:

Hmm... Maybe i'm still entirely lost then! I haven't inputted the capacity myself. I'm going off what has already been written into the system by the previous owner. I wouldn't know where to begin, I'm finding this all like a foreign language to be honest! 

Thanks, 

Naomi 

 

Naomi,

 

You are at the base of a very long and very steep 'learning curve' (I dislike that cliché but it is accurate!) You will probably feel overwhelmed at the complexity and the language involved but stick with it and keep asking questions. It will begin to make sense eventually. 

 

Have you read WotEver's "Battery Primer"? He explains all the basics very clearly and any jargon gets properly explained. 

 

 

 

It's very good. Just don't tell him I said so or he'll be IMPOSSIBLE for weeks!!  

 

 

 

[nashworth]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Naomi,

 

You are at the base of a very long and very steep 'learning curve' (I dislike that cliché but it is accurate!) You will probably feel overwhelmed at the complexity and the language involved but stick with it and keep asking questions. It will begin to make sense eventually. 

 

Have you read WotEver's "Battery Primer"? He explains all the basics very clearly and any jargon gets properly explained. 

 

 

 

It's very good. Just don't tell him I said so or he'll be IMPOSSIBLE for weeks!!  

 

 

 

I haven't seen it no! I'll give it a read now. Thank you, very much appreciate all of the help  ! 

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

It's very good. Just don't tell him I said so or he'll be IMPOSSIBLE for weeks!!  

 

Could you widen this doorway please...

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

 

Could you widen this doorway please...

 

See what I mean!!

 

[ditchcrawler]

51 minutes ago, nashworth said:

Hmm... Maybe i'm still entirely lost then! I haven't inputted the capacity myself. I'm going off what has already been written into the system by the previous owner. I wouldn't know where to begin, I'm finding this all like a foreign language to be honest! 

Thanks, 

Naomi 

I am not surprised, you would be amazed how many others don't understand batteries but lots think they do. The trouble with those meters is they make lots of assumptions and often get it wrong which leads unfortunateley  to a lot of boaters not getting the best life from their batteries .  It takes time to get your head around it all.

 

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Thanks, that was what I thought. Just thought whilst typing this though, these new fangled lectric cars use lithium batteries I think?? If so when parked outside in a cold winter minus ten etc what happens to the batteries??

 

They can't be charged at temperatures approaching 0°C. However I understand that  Tesla use a Lead Acid battery to operate a heater to keep the Li-ion batteries warm.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

 

They can't be charged at temperatures approaching 0°C. However I understand that  Tesla use a Lead Acid battery to operate a heater to keep the Li-ion batteries warm.

Mmmmmmmmm so what happens to minions who pay a mere 30 thousand for a nissan leaf?? also what stops the la battery from going flat if you park the car up say for a fortnight and fly off on holiday in a cold winter?

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, nashworth said:

Thank you for recognising this! I had no idea... I've now managed to read the status of my batteries & charge them fully. 

Thanks again!

 

Basically the piece by Wotever (another Tony) says is just what I told you. Use voltage (off load) to tell you when you should start recharging ASAP but try to recharge every day and use Amps going into the battery to tell you when they are "fully" charged. That way is the simplest. In a year or so when your head stop hurting and you have got a handle on a lot more by all means start to try to set the thing up so the lies it tells will be far smaller ones but for now only use volts and amps - they are accurate.

 

Lets say you have 4 x 110 Amp hour batteries (a very common set-up) that gives a total of 440 Ah. 1% of 440 is 4.4 amps so recharge until the ammeter says between 4.4 and 8.8 amps (say 4 to 8 amps) with no significant loads running.

 

This is the simplest and easiest to grasp way of using that meter.

 

Edited to add: for now I would advise you to totally ignore the discussion of lithium batteries in this topic  because it will be of almost no help to you at this time. Certainly do not think buying them will solve your charging problems at a stroke. To get the best life and long term use out of then requires more knowledge than the batteries you have now and probably more  equipment.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Tony Brooks

[cuthound]

42 minutes ago, WotEver said:

 

Could you widen this doorway please...

 

Surely only the top bit. ?

11 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Mmmmmmmmm so what happens to minions who pay a mere 30 thousand for a nissan leaf?? also what stops the la battery from going flat if you park the car up say for a fortnight and fly off on holiday in a cold winter?

 

They find out that the early adopters of any new technology are guinea pigs. ?

 

Given time practical solutions to these problems are developed, but it always takes time.

[Mac of Cygnet]

Can I just say to the OP not to get too wound up over this?  I don't understand most of it either, and neither do I have any fancy gadgets to monitor everything.  Cygnet is on her 3rd set of batteries (2nd starter) in 15 years, and when the present ones are goosed I will buy some more from wherever I happen to be at the time. 

All I do know is to use as little electricity as possible, and run the engine for a while most days (preferably while moving).  I do have a copy of 'The 12 volt Bible for Boats' which I think I may have looked at 14 years ago.  I don't have an inverter - in fact the OP hasn't actually mentioned anything she needs an inverter for, has she?

What I did take on board years ago is that 12V fridges are very hungry for electric, so I use gas.

There, how's that for tempting fate?

[peterboat]

22 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Surely only the top bit. ?

 

They find out that the early adopters of any new technology are guinea pigs. ?

 

Given time practical solutions to these problems are developed, but it always takes time.

They have been out for 9 years so I am sure they have got it sorted honestly ?

[Eeyore]

Is @BlueStringPudding still in the same area; lots of experience with this sort of thing, and everything else about living aboard.

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

Can I just say to the OP not to get too wound up over this?  I don't understand most of it either, and neither do I have any fancy gadgets to monitor everything.  Cygnet is on her 3rd set of batteries (2nd starter) in 15 years, and when the present ones are goosed I will buy some more from wherever I happen to be at the time. 

All I do know is to use as little electricity as possible, and run the engine for a while most days (preferably while moving).  I do have a copy of 'The 12 volt Bible for Boats' which I think I may have looked at 14 years ago.  I don't have an inverter - in fact the OP hasn't actually mentioned anything she needs an inverter for, has she?

What I did take on board years ago is that 12V fridges are very hungry for electric, so I use gas.

There, how's that for tempting fate?

Mac its called solar panels and they run compressor fridge fantastically