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Smoking SR3


Martinb

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Dear forum....we have a Lister SR3 air cooled engine in our NB and I notice when first starting and until warm there is blueish smoke from the exhaust.  This tends to disappear after a while.   However when I place the boat in reverse I normally get darker smoke from the exhaust.

 

I recall reading listers are not really built to run in reverse however I am wondering if there is anything that I need to be doing etc or is this the norm with this type of engine.

 

Thanks in advance

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Well of course the Lister never actually runs in reverse.  It will have a gearbox that does that for you.

 

However reverse running of a propeller is never as efficient as going ahead, so you tend to run the engine harder to get the degree of power you need.

Old Listers like the SR3 can tend to produce different types of smoke in different circumstances, particularly if they have done arge hours without any major rebuilding, but have to be very tired before they ever actually stop chugging.  We have people on the forum who specialise in their repair - if you were to post a video or two, they may suggest if what you have is "normal", or whether you may have a tired engine.

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52 minutes ago, Martinb said:

Dear forum....we have a Lister SR3 air cooled engine in our NB and I notice when first starting and until warm there is blueish smoke from the exhaust.  This tends to disappear after a while.   However when I place the boat in reverse I normally get darker smoke from the exhaust.

 

I recall reading listers are not really built to run in reverse however I am wondering if there is anything that I need to be doing etc or is this the norm with this type of engine.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Blue smoke is lubricating oil being burnt in the combustion chambers. If it only happens whilst the engine is warming up, then it is probably oil getting past the piston rings until the engine has warmed up, however if it happens when the engine is hot, then the engine is likely to need a rebuild.

 

Black smoke is the result of excess fuelling, and occurs when the engine is suddenly out under extra load, for example whilst using extra revs in reverse to stop the boat or in any gear when the prop is fouled.

 

White smoke is indicative of water turning into steam, either by it getting into the combustion chambers from a blown headgasket or from condensation in the exhaust pipework evaporating.

 

Grey smoke is indicative of unburnt fuel, for example due to low compression on one or more cylinders.

Edited by cuthound
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16 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Blue smoke is lubricating oil being burnt in the combustion chambers. If it only happens whilst the engine is warming up, then it is probably oil getting past the piston rings until the engine has warmed up, however if it happens when the engine is hot, then the engine is likely to need a rebuild.

 

Black smoke is the result of excess fuelling, and occurs when the engine is suddenly out under extra load, for example whilst using extra revs in reverse to stop the boat or in any gear when the prop is fouled.

 

White smoke is indicative of water turning into steam, either by it getting into the combustion chambers from a blown headgasket or from condensation in the exhaust pipework evaporating.

 

Grey smoke is indicative of unburnt fuel, for example due to low compression on one or more cylinders.

Thanks Cuthound.  So the blue and black is normal if seen in the circumstances mentioned?

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4 minutes ago, Martinb said:

Thanks Cuthound.  So the blue and black is normal if seen in the circumstances mentioned?

 

Yes normal, subject to the proviso that I don't own an old Lister, however I do have a fair bit of experience with much larger diesel engines.

 

If I'm wrong then I'm sure someone with direct experience of an old Lister will correct me.

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ER - possibly no. Agree blue = lube oil but until the OP tells us what his sump oil level is doing and what his sump oil feels and smells like it is possible he is suffering oil dilution and a high oil level caused by fuel leaks inside the engine.

 

The dark smoke when reversing may also be caused by an oversized prop if it goes away once the engine speed has stabilised. My guess is the prop.

 

It is the Lister (and many other sun and planet wheel) gearboxes that are no built to operate in reverse for long periods, its a bearing & lubrication issue. Nothing whatsoever to do with the engine.

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6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

ER - possibly no. Agree blue = lube oil but until the OP tells us what his sump oil level is doing and what his sump oil feels and smells like it is possible he is suffering oil dilution and a high oil level caused by fuel leaks inside the engine.

 

The dark smoke when reversing may also be caused by an oversized prop if it goes away once the engine speed has stabilised. My guess is the prop.

 

It is the Lister (and many other sun and planet wheel) gearboxes that are no built to operate in reverse for long periods, its a bearing & lubrication issue. Nothing whatsoever to do with the engine.

Thanks Tony, not sure what you mean by OP but anyway.

 

Taking on board your comments I would have thought this would have been seen all the time (the blueish smoke) but this does disappear once the engine has warmed up.  The blackish smoke only appears if thrown into reverse quickly and to extreme so the explanation of excess fueling feels plausible.  If it was a prop issue wouldn't this be seen in forward and reverse?  She was recently taken out for blacking at the prop was not damaged in any way.

 

I am not expert by any means so always interested to seek views and opinions on what is "normal" for this type of engine.

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OP = original poster.

 

There is probably a gear ratio difference between ahead and reverse with those sun wheel boxes (never worked it out though).

 

Do you ever stick it in full speed ahead from stationary? If not try is. It may well smoke. It may also smoke in ahead if you take it on a river and give it some  welly. Try opening the throttle very gently and progressively in reverse. if the smoke is much reduced then its probably the prop. IT might also be related to gummed up injectors  delivering fuel streaks instead of droplets.

 

Although blue is the colour usually attributed to oil burning sometimes small amounts of carbon in the exhaust can look a bit bluish so one can't rule out oil burning but it might be a fuel issue, injectors probably. but if it is I would not worry about it.

 

Another explanation is that worn valve guides or stem oil seals let some oil trickle into the inlet port when stopped and more likely when topping up with oil. That would produce blue smoke on start up for a while.

 

If it starts well from cold. the oil level is static or only dropping, is not banging and clanking when compared with other air cooled Listers, and has enough power I doubt there is any urgent need to spend money - especially if I am correct about the prop..

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15 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

OP = original poster.

 

There is probably a gear ratio difference between ahead and reverse with those sun wheel boxes (never worked it out though).

 

Do you ever stick it in full speed ahead from stationary? If not try is. It may well smoke. It may also smoke in ahead if you take it on a river and give it some  welly. Try opening the throttle very gently and progressively in reverse. if the smoke is much reduced then its probably the prop. IT might also be related to gummed up injectors  delivering fuel streaks instead of droplets.

 

Although blue is the colour usually attributed to oil burning sometimes small amounts of carbon in the exhaust can look a bit bluish so one can't rule out oil burning but it might be a fuel issue, injectors probably. but if it is I would not worry about it.

 

Another explanation is that worn valve guides or stem oil seals let some oil trickle into the inlet port when stopped and more likely when topping up with oil. That would produce blue smoke on start up for a while.

 

If it starts well from cold. the oil level is static or only dropping, is not banging and clanking when compared with other air cooled Listers, and has enough power I doubt there is any urgent need to spend money - especially if I am correct about the prop..

Thanks Tony, really helpful.

 

We have never done full speed from stationary.  We are based on the Wey so river based cruising is all we tend to do.  Will give your suggestion a go though and see what we get.  In fact we find she tends to prefer being pushed a bit rather than chugging along.

 

The engine has always started well and ticks over nicely with no banging or clanking.  Its 19HP so not a fast engine by any means but does what she needs to do.   Reverse has never been great but perhaps thats down to HP?  She does tend to take a few seconds to pull the boat into reverse compared to other NB with younger and more powerful engines.

 

Promising to hear I dont have to dig deep for any major repairs.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The dark smoke when reversing may also be caused by an oversized prop if it goes away once the engine speed has stabilised. My guess is the prop.

 

 

It can also be the overfuel stop on the rack needs adjusting

 

Richard

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3 hours ago, Martinb said:

Thanks Tony, really helpful.

 

We have never done full speed from stationary.  We are based on the Wey so river based cruising is all we tend to do.  Will give your suggestion a go though and see what we get.  In fact we find she tends to prefer being pushed a bit rather than chugging along.

 

The engine has always started well and ticks over nicely with no banging or clanking.  Its 19HP so not a fast engine by any means but does what she needs to do.   Reverse has never been great but perhaps thats down to HP?  She does tend to take a few seconds to pull the boat into reverse compared to other NB with younger and more powerful engines.

 

Promising to hear I dont have to dig deep for any major repairs.

 

I agree with Richard that someone may have messed up the overfuel stop or even the cold start device in jammed in the cold start position but they are a little more complicated than what I suggested.

 

If by the bit in red you mean the gearbox takes a while to engage reverse then if you have an LH150 gearbox it could be the wrong oil - it needs EP80 gear oil, or I recently had a question via Canal Boat magazine with similar slow engagement symptoms on an LH150 box. It turned out to be simple in that the gearbox and eduction box dip sticks had been transposed so the levels were wrong. The long dip stick goes in the reduction box and the short one in the gearbox. If you don't have an LH150 then ignore this bit.

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If you are whizzing along at 4mph and you shove it into reverse the propeller has to turn against the flow of the water and puts a bigger load on the engine, you then get black smoke. (Well that's my theory anyway, just watch it being shot down!)  Your engine sounds perfectly ok for a while longer but do watch out for diesel fuel getting into the lube oil in the sump from leaky injector pipes.

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When the enviropolice went crazy on smoke in truck engines ,I went into the cause of white smoke......its fairly simple ,caused by dead space in the combustion chamber that is cooled by close proximity to metal .......the fuel doesnt burn completely,but turns into EPA  nasties such as aldehydes and ketones.......which are intermediate stages in combustion.......and worse,they sting your eyes,and choke asthmatics.........The cure in modern engine design is complex,but basically ,you eliminate the dead space by placing piston rings at the very top of pistons,and reducing head to piston clearance......heres a did you know......the allowable particulates in a 2018 diesel are 1/1000 of the allowables in a 1980s motor....and its very doubtful a Lister could even comply with 1980s emissions rules.......Put mildy....they are a smokey old donk spewing out diesel pollution by the cartload.

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If a lister aircooled is not smoking at some point in your day, then you need to stop what you are doing and think.

can you hear birdsong ? Yes ?

 

you forgot to start it.

 

its a very old design they smoke. What is 

is an acceptable level to you is the deciding factor on rebuild.

in 1984 i bought thaxted. Lister ha 2. It smoked. I negotiated a bit off for a decoke and rings.

in 2000 having thrashed it towing the butty around and going almost everywhere a 70 foot boat would go I sold her.

 

i knocked off a bit coz it needed a decoke and rings. I sort of forgot over 16 years to get round to it.

8 years later it got rebuilt. Smoking well last time I saw her.

 

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