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Hydraulic steering pump


bigcol

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Hi all
Don’t know if I posted this in the right place,
New installation
I  now require a Hydraulic helm steering pump
Barge is 56 ft engine is beta 90,
Been offered a ultra flex UP20F £300
Yes could any advice or the pump above or secondhand or somthing?

Thanks in advance

Col

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Very little help I'm afraid but can only suggest E bay or boat jumbles, I'm sure you know but the bigger the helm pump the less turns you need to shove the ram to and fro, Too small and its frantic wheel spinning to steer anywhere. I got a Vetus pump from a boat jumble years ago and it was seized but when I opened it up it was really a very simple device and its worked perfectly for years. The recommended hydraulic fluid is quite thin and expensive but JCB brake fluid is just thin hydraulic fluid and is or was a lot cheaper.

Vetus have quite good info on rams and pumps and stuff and with effort you can use their info and expertise,

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11 minutes ago, bigcol said:

Hi all
Don’t know if I posted this in the right place,
New installation
I  now require a Hydraulic helm steering pump
Barge is 56 ft engine is beta 90,
Been offered a ultra flex UP20F £300
Yes could any advice or the pump above or secondhand or somthing?

Thanks in advance

Col

Col I have hydraulic steering it's the vetus system where the wheel is attached to the pump, it works well five turns lock to lock and has feel, you arnt fitting an engine pump system are you? Because I wouldn't your boat isn't big enough for that

  • Greenie 1
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17 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Col I have hydraulic steering it's the vetus system where the wheel is attached to the pump, it works well five turns lock to lock and has feel, you arnt fitting an engine pump system are you? Because I wouldn't your boat isn't big enough for that

 

2 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Same here - Vetus system, never heard of Ultra Flex but I can't think a Vetus pump would be much different price wise and there are plenty of dealers nationwide.  

Yes had one on Jambo Rafiki yes worked very well.

just putting it our their just in case somone has a second hand one for sale.  Fingers crossed

how much are we looking at???

 

re my beta paint, sent email to beta ordering the paint.

and they sent a email back saying they don’t send paint in post??

 

col

 

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2 hours ago, bigcol said:

re my beta paint, sent email to beta ordering the paint.

and they sent a email back saying they don’t send paint in post??

 

col

 

Then ask them what the RAL or BS colour number is and see if you can get it locally. Apart from the exhaust manifold stubs nothing on the engines should get above 100C so my guess is a decent gloss paint will do.

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6 hours ago, peterboat said:

Col I have hydraulic steering it's the vetus system where the wheel is attached to the pump, it works well five turns lock to lock and has feel, you arnt fitting an engine pump system are you? Because I wouldn't your boat isn't big enough for that

 

6 hours ago, Neil2 said:

Same here - Vetus system, never heard of Ultra Flex but I can't think a Vetus pump would be much different price wise and there are plenty of dealers nationwide.  

Yes had one on Jambo Rafiki yes worked very well.

just putting it our their just in case somone has a second hand one for sale.  Fingers crossed

how much are we looking at???

 

re my beta paint, sent email to beta ordering the paint.

and they sent a email back saying they don’t send paint in post??

 

col

 

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3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Then ask them what the RAL or BS colour number is and see if you can get it locally. Apart from the exhaust manifold stubs nothing on the engines should get above 100C so my guess is a decent gloss paint will do.

Yes done that the paint is named deep Brunswick green

Adrian from beta took photo and sent me the detail for the paint

greenie to you

 

thankyou

 

job done

7B6A3210-F259-44CD-91C6-842888655D65.jpeg

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Beware, any "Brunswick green" is likely to describe a variety of hues. BS or RAL numbers are more likely to get a better match.

 

My set of colour chips suggest that BS 227 is in fact from the BS 381C colour series and the number in that series is 227 so it should read BS 381C 227.

 

Do not confuse with the BS 4800 series that has colour 14C40 that is a similar but not identical dark green that I suspect some manufacturers also class as a Brunswick green.

 

FWIW Johnsons trade paints will mix  small tins of Trade Gloss that I think are 0.5 litre.

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24 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Beware, any "Brunswick green" is likely to describe a variety of hues. BS or RAL numbers are more likely to get a better match.

 

My set of colour chips suggest that BS 227 is in fact from the BS 381C colour series and the number in that series is 227 so it should read BS 381C 227.

 

Do not confuse with the BS 4800 series that has colour 14C40 that is a similar but not identical dark green that I suspect some manufacturers also class as a Brunswick green.

 

FWIW Johnsons trade paints will mix  small tins of Trade Gloss that I think are 0.5 litre.

When I was in the Army we used to use deep Brunswick green, sometimes it would come from different suppliers and as you have pointed out it can be a different colour!! Oh how we laughed ?

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I converted Parglena from chain to hydraulic system, I was advised to avoid Vetus as its overpriced carp only suited to small gin palaces.

The Helm pump I used was from Kobelt.

http://www.kobelt.com/products/steering/list?categoryId=c4b33b47-9798-6a94-a253-ff0000f575ed

Variable so between 4.5 to 9 turns and 110deg lock to lock,  useful if cruising in varied waters (canal, river and seaway) as I did.

I designed the system myself with technical help from Kobelt technical engineer. I dont have any details as they went with the boat.

ASAP supplied the kit, sit down before you look at the prices. https://www.asap-supplies.com/brands/kobelt

The ram has to be matched to the rudder and the pump otherwise it will not provide enough thrust or to much and could blow the seals on the ram.   Kobelt is not cheap but without doubt the best. There was a very good series of articles in Pro boat magazine explaining how to fit hydraulic steering but the links I have no longer work :(

Edited by Loddon
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3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I converted Parglena from chain to hydraulic system, I was advised to avoid Vetus as its overpriced carp.

The Helm pump I used was from Kobelt.

http://www.kobelt.com/products/steering/list?categoryId=c4b33b47-9798-6a94-a253-ff0000f575ed

Variable so between 4.5 to 9 turns and 110deg lock to lock,  useful if cruising in varied waters (canal, river and seaway) as I did.

I designed the system myself with technical help from Kobelt technical engineer. I dont have any details as they went with the boat.

ASAP supplied the kit, sit down before you look at the prices. https://www.asap-supplies.com/brands/kobelt

The ram has to be matched to the pump otherwise it will be all over the place. Not cheap but without doubt the best. There was a very good series of articles in Pro boat magazine explaining how to fit hydraulic steering but the links I have no longer work :(

I don't think Vetus make the stuff themselves, I sort of agree with you about overpriced crap as I had two of their inverters catch fire!! My steering has been OK though and I got it at cost as compensation for the inverters. It has some feel and is the right gearing for the boat but only time will tell on the quality

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4 hours ago, Loddon said:

I converted Parglena from chain to hydraulic system, I was advised to avoid Vetus as its overpriced carp only suited to small gin palaces.

The Helm pump I used was from Kobelt.

http://www.kobelt.com/products/steering/list?categoryId=c4b33b47-9798-6a94-a253-ff0000f575ed

Variable so between 4.5 to 9 turns and 110deg lock to lock,  useful if cruising in varied waters (canal, river and seaway) as I did.

I designed the system myself with technical help from Kobelt technical engineer. I dont have any details as they went with the boat.

ASAP supplied the kit, sit down before you look at the prices. https://www.asap-supplies.com/brands/kobelt

The ram has to be matched to the rudder and the pump otherwise it will not provide enough thrust or to much and could blow the seals on the ram.   Kobelt is not cheap but without doubt the best. There was a very good series of articles in Pro boat magazine explaining how to fit hydraulic steering but the links I have no longer work :(

I have looked at the ASAP link and in all honesty they are living in daydream land!! hydraulic cylinders just arnt that expensive, and thats for the real world where they operate at 5000 - 10000 psi, not the minuscule pressure in boat systems with little pressure on the ram. So I for one would look at Vetus systems as they are way better priced

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As far as I know the majority of the small boat hydraulic steering systems use a bi-rotor pump submerged in a small reservoir of fluid. Now, it so happens that many car power steering pumps use bi-rotor pumps submerged in a small reservoir. They also usually contain their own PRV. I have no idea about the complexity of grafting a shaft to accept a wheel onto an automotive pump from a scrap yard or the volume per turn of such pumps but I suspect that for a smaller boat this and a standard hydraulic double acting ram might well do the job.

 

Just a thought.

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26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

As far as I know the majority of the small boat hydraulic steering systems use a bi-rotor pump submerged in a small reservoir of fluid. Now, it so happens that many car power steering pumps use bi-rotor pumps submerged in a small reservoir. They also usually contain their own PRV. I have no idea about the complexity of grafting a shaft to accept a wheel onto an automotive pump from a scrap yard or the volume per turn of such pumps but I suspect that for a smaller boat this and a standard hydraulic double acting ram might well do the job.

 

Just a thought.

They arnt like that Tony they are a pressure pump , the rack or the box is the control

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13 minutes ago, peterboat said:

They arnt like that Tony they are a pressure pump , the rack or the box is the control

However, leading on from Tony’s thoughts, how about an electric steering rack from a modern car? Mount the rack at the stern, the wheel wherever, and a few wires. Sounds like an interesting project. Racks can be had for a couple of hundred quid, don’t know about the wheel and sender costs. 

 

Or maybe they also all require an ecu as well. Dunno. 

 

 

Edited by WotEver
Added a bit
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4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

They arnt like that Tony they are a pressure pump , the rack or the box is the control

I know that and  did not say anything about the control.

 

The automotive pumps I am talking about are belt or perhaps nowadays electricailly driven providing a constant flow of fluid to the control. The control decides where to send the fluid - the rack or return to the reservoir. When the driver holds the wheel on full lock the control is unable to set a position that returns fluid to the reservoir so the pump must have a PRV  and you can hear it "swishing" or the drive belt squealing under full lock conditions.

 

There is as far as I know no control as such on simple marine hydraulic steering with the pump being reversible supplying pressurised fluid to one side of the ram or the other. I admit that further thought indicates that the return to an automotive pump would need modifying but I am sure that as long a y ou can find a small enough pump a DIY approach using standard hydraulic components would work.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

However, leading on from Tony’s thoughts, how about an electric steering rack from a modern car? Mount the rack at the stern, the wheel wherever, and a few wires. Sounds like an interesting project. Racks can be had for a couple of hundred quid, don’t know about the wheel and sender costs. 

 

I think the electrical control uses a torsion bar in the connection between wheel and steering rack to provide relative proportional movement to the switching so I don't see how you could separate wheel/shaft and rack in a away to suit the boat unless you went for a complicated system of universal joints, bearings and revolving shafts but then yo have a Whitlock steering system.

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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think the electrical control uses a torsion bar in the connection between wheel and steering rack to provide relative proportional movement to the switching so I don't see how you could separate wheel/shaft and rack in a away to suit the boat unless you went for a complicated system of universal joints, bearings and revolving shafts but then yo have a Whitlock steering system.

Not all of them I don’t think. There are several versions of electric power steering. Some only assist while others do all the work (hence auto-park being possible). I’ve seen scrap yard Vauxhall Corsa electric steering wheel head units on eBay and the like and it’s just a lump of metal with several electrical connectors. 

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1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Not all of them I don’t think. There are several versions of electric power steering. Some only assist while others do all the work (hence auto-park being possible). I’ve seen scrap yard Vauxhall Corsa electric steering wheel head units on eBay and the like and it’s just a lump of metal with several electrical connectors. 

Agreed but as far as I am aware they all have a sensor/control box that senses the torque applied to the wheel. This si then sent to the ECU that the controls the actual assitance or full operation. If you want to generate torque in then you must have resistance to movemnt. This is why I do not think it will be easy to transplant an electrical system into a boat where the rudder is a fair way from any likely location of the wheel.

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With twin rudders the Ackerman principal would need to be adopted for accurate steering and least frictional drag on the bends.  In my opinion the power steering on most modern cars is too powerful, bordering on the negative, no feel at all.

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They do have an ECU [electric racks] plenty are fitted to classic cars with a very simple variable control, but they arnt very good. As for standard pumps and racks/steering boxes the control is in the box/rack so I dont think its a starter, I was looking at this before I bought a Vetus system, which works very well

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

They do have an ECU [electric racks] plenty are fitted to classic cars with a very simple variable control, but they arnt very good. As for standard pumps and racks/steering boxes the control is in the box/rack so I dont think its a starter, I was looking at this before I bought a Vetus system, which works very well

But a simple system with the two ports in the pump connected to the ram requires no control system. Both vane and bi-rotor pumps are bi-directional (although not used as such in cars).  It would not need a PRV because once the ram is at full travel it would develop a hydraulic lock so the skipper could not turn the wheel. Thought nees tobe given on how to get fluid from the reservoir into such a system and to bleed the air out of it. I have seen diagrams but can't remember them.

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3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

But a simple system with the two ports in the pump connected to the ram requires no control system. Both vane and bi-rotor pumps are bi-directional (although not used as such in cars).  It would not need a PRV because once the ram is at full travel it would develop a hydraulic lock so the skipper could not turn the wheel. Thought nees tobe given on how to get fluid from the reservoir into such a system and to bleed the air out of it. I have seen diagrams but can't remember them.

They only have one high pressure port connected to the ram 9the rack], in a car system, the second pipe is is a low pressure return, when you turn the wheel it uncovers a port and allows high pressure fluid to aid the rack as it moves across the unused fluid returns to the reservoir via a coller and then back to the  tank

Edited by peterboat
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