help with engine hours.

[Karl]

Dear all, as new to boating I need some urgent help as I have to make a decision on a boat tomorrow, It is a 2011 62ft boat with piper hull but the engine is a Beta 43 with 5500 hrs on it. It has not been serviced since 2017 but the boat is in excellent condition for its age. Question to me is 5500 hrs sounds a lot for an 8 year old boat or is it me being paranoid. Help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Karl said:

Dear all, as new to boating I need some urgent help as I have to make a decision on a boat tomorrow, It is a 2011 62ft boat with piper hull but the engine is a Beta 43 with 5500 hrs on it. It has not been serviced since 2017 but the boat is in excellent condition for its age. Question to me is 5500 hrs sounds a lot for an 8 year old boat or is it me being paranoid. Help would be appreciated. Thanks.

We used to do about 1000 hours per year, at 10,000 hours our Lister LPWS4 did not smoke, did not use a drop of oil between changes and ran as 'sweet as a nut'.

The secret was an oil change and service every 100 hours.

 

The hours are virtually irrelevant, servicing is the key.

If it has been sat un-serviced with acidic oil in the sump you'll have problems.

If it has not been serviced to manufacturers requirement you could have problems.

 

The worst possible life for a diesel engine is to sit unused.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We used to do about 1000 hours per year, at 10,000 hours our Lister LPWS4 did not smoke, did not use a drop of oil between changes and ran as 'sweet as a nut'.

The secret was an oil change and service every 100 hours.

 

The hours are virtually irrelevant, servicing is the key.

If it has been sat un-serviced with acidic oil in the sump you'll have problems.

If it has not been serviced to manufacturers requirement you could have problems.

 

The worst possible life for a diesel engine is to sit unused.

We have the same engine which runs under the same conditions at 7200 hours (i.e.  does about 1000 hours a year,doesn't smoke, doesn't lose a drop of oil between services, runs sweet as a nut. etc) but I've been using a service interval of 250 hours, I thought the 100 hours was just for the very first service.

[dmr]

19 minutes ago, Karl said:

Dear all, as new to boating I need some urgent help as I have to make a decision on a boat tomorrow, It is a 2011 62ft boat with piper hull but the engine is a Beta 43 with 5500 hrs on it. It has not been serviced since 2017 but the boat is in excellent condition for its age. Question to me is 5500 hrs sounds a lot for an 8 year old boat or is it me being paranoid. Help would be appreciated. Thanks.

The lack of a service since 2017 is probably a bigger concern than the highish hours.

 

Many people say most engine wear occurs as the engine starts from cold, so if those long hours represent long boating days then the engine might be in better condition than one that has done lots of 1/2 hour battery charge runs.   With proper servicing an engine should do at least 10,000 hours without any big trouble.

 

If it starts nicely and doesn't smoke I would not worry.

 

...............Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

We have the same engine which runs under the same conditions at 7200 hours (i.e.  does about 1000 hours a year,doesn't smoke, doesn't lose a drop of oil between services, runs sweet as a nut. etc) but I've been using a service interval of 250 hours, I thought the 100 hours was just for the very first service.

I think that difference is between the LPWS & the LPW.

 

The figure quoted in my copy of the workshop manual is 100 hours for the Canal Star (LPWS) indirect injection variant of the engine.

Indirect injection engines have a high compression ratio (typically 22:1) which causes more products of combustion to pass by the piston rings to contaminate the oil. This is simply a limitation of the engine design, which has to be compensated for by shorter oil change intervals.

For comparison the direct injection variant of the engine, usually referred to as the Alpha (LPW) has a lower compression ratio (typically 17:1) and has an oil change interval of 250 hours.

(These figure may have been revised in later issues of the workshop manual, but the difference between types will remain.)

 

Edit to add copy of manual.

 

See section 4 : 10 (LPWS = 100 hours)

 

 

 

 

LISTER PETTER LPW-LPWS OPS MANUAL.pdf

Edited May 28, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[TheBiscuits]

It's a plant engine.  They get chucked in cement mixers and generators and ignored for years on end and thousands of hours of hard work, which is good for them.

 

Make an offer on it if you like it subject to an oil analysis on the engine.  Take a little bit of the engine oil out of the engine and send it off to be tested if you are worried about it.

 

The other thinking is that you can replace the engine for about 5 grand if it's totally shot, without changing the beds or gearbox or shafts (though you probably should put new engine mounts in while the engine is out!) so just knock 5 grand off your offer and cross your fingers.

 

It's a tough old new engine, so I'd not worry.  Start it from cold with about 3 seconds on the glowplugs and then rev the hell out of it out of gear - rated peak power on the Beta 43 is at 2800 rpm, so bounce it up to 3000 rpm if the throttle will let you get that far (it probably won't!) and watch the owner's face while you do it.  If they cringe when you do, offer less ... if they nod and smile because you know what you are doing, offer them fair price.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think that difference is between the LPWS & the LPW.

 

The figure quoted in my copy of the workshop manual is 100 hours for the Canal Star (LPWS) indirect injection variant of the engine.

Indirect injection engines have a high compression ratio (typically 22:1) which causes more products of combustion to pass by the piston rings to contaminate the oil. This is simply a limitation of the engine design, which has to be compensated for by shorter oil change intervals.

For comparison the direct injection variant of the engine, usually referred to as the Alpha (LPW) has a lower compression ratio (typically 17:1) and has an oil change interval of 250 hours.

(These figure may have been revised in later issues of the workshop manual, but the difference between types will remain.)

 

Edit to add copy of manual.

 

See section 4 : 10 (LPWS = 100 hours)

 

 

 

 

LISTER PETTER LPW-LPWS OPS MANUAL.pdf 172.19 kB · 0 downloads

That explains it then, when I change my oil at 250 hours it needs changing 'cos it is getting pretty black by then, at 100 hours (about where I am at the moment) it is still fairly clean.

[pete harrison]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

If it starts nicely and doesn't smoke I would not worry.

 

...............Dave

This was my thinking when I bought my boat last year. The sellers had owned the boat for 16 years but could not recall when the oil and filters were last changed, although it did not look or smell too bad (the boat had layed out of use for several years). The engine burst into life with an almost flat battery and did not make any bad noises, leak externally or smoke, and I left it ticking over for half an hour before setting off for the first time. There was no oil pressure gauge (there is now) and I did not change the oil or filters. The first day and a bit was heading against the stream on the Thames, which had just come off yellow boards, so the engine worked quite hard but remained smoke free - and it ran without fault for the full length of the Oxford Canal (apart from a troublesome starter motor that has now been sorted). I appreciate I took a risk and got away with it but I do think some people worry about these engines too much. Having said that all fluids have now been changed and the cooling system has been overhauled, and fluid changes will become a regular event in line with the manufacturers recomendation.

 

My engine is a 1995 46hp three cylinder water cooled diesel that is most commonly found in a Massey Ferguson 135 tractor, and the boat is a 71'6'' 'historic' narrow boat 

Edited May 29, 2019 by pete harrison

[Bobbybass]

I had a Beta 43. Changed oil and filters every 200 hours..and used Wilko oil. At 10,000 hours it started without heaters...ran without smoke...and didn't use a drop of oil between services.

As has been said..its a plant engine. I worked in plant hire for years and we ran these in generators and diggers. Long term hire on sites we did visit and service, but they probably did over 500 hours between oil changes...and had dirt and dust chucked at them. Never a problem. A really great little engine.

[Neil2]

9 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

It's a plant engine.  They get chucked in cement mixers and generators and ignored for years on end and thousands of hours of hard work, which is good for them.

 

Make an offer on it if you like it subject to an oil analysis on the engine.  Take a little bit of the engine oil out of the engine and send it off to be tested if you are worried about it.

 

The other thinking is that you can replace the engine for about 5 grand if it's totally shot, without changing the beds or gearbox or shafts (though you probably should put new engine mounts in while the engine is out!) so just knock 5 grand off your offer and cross your fingers.

 

It's a tough old new engine, so I'd not worry.  Start it from cold with about 3 seconds on the glowplugs and then rev the hell out of it out of gear - rated peak power on the Beta 43 is at 2800 rpm, so bounce it up to 3000 rpm if the throttle will let you get that far (it probably won't!) and watch the owner's face while you do it.  If they cringe when you do, offer less ... if they nod and smile because you know what you are doing, offer them fair price.

Yes it's easy to get the oil tested, several places on the internet sell kits and it's not expensive.  

 

I did it once with a Lister LPWS which as this thread has illustrated is one engine that you can't neglect.  the test came back indicating significant bearing wear as I suspected, but the owner wouldn't renegotiate so I pulled out of the sale.  No doubt whoever bought that boat will have replaced the engine by now.

 

But as others have said these Kubota engines are really tough and I would only be concerned if the thing was smoking after you've got it warmed up.  

 

 

[dor]

My Vetus manual says oil change at 100hrs, yet the underlying Mitsubishi engine manual gives 250 hours.

 

I suspect the 100 hour figure for the Vetus is primarily given to provide revenue for Vetus dealers, as it also says that a Vetus service is required to maintain the warranty.

 

My 250-ish oil changes do not seem to have upset the engine, with most of the hours being used for cruising rather than battery charging.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

39 minutes ago, dor said:

My Vetus manual says oil change at 100hrs, yet the underlying Mitsubishi engine manual gives 250 hours.

 

I suspect the 100 hour figure for the Vetus is primarily given to provide revenue for Vetus dealers, as it also says that a Vetus service is required to maintain the warranty.

 

My 250-ish oil changes do not seem to have upset the engine, with most of the hours being used for cruising rather than battery charging.

I have a Beta 43, with a 250hr service recommendation. The sump capacity is much greater than a neighbours Vetus engine with a 100hr frequency. Could just be that the Beta engines oil is getting less work put on it as there is more to go round and more to dissolve the nasties produced, so takes longer for the concentration to rise to problem levels.

 

Jen

[mrsmelly]

12 hours ago, Karl said:

Dear all, as new to boating I need some urgent help as I have to make a decision on a boat tomorrow, It is a 2011 62ft boat with piper hull but the engine is a Beta 43 with 5500 hrs on it. It has not been serviced since 2017 but the boat is in excellent condition for its age. Question to me is 5500 hrs sounds a lot for an 8 year old boat or is it me being paranoid. Help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Its not even run in yet.

[Athy]

8 hours ago, pete harrison said:

 

 

My engine is a 1995 46hp three cylinder water cooled diesel that is most commonly found in a Massey Ferguson 135 tractor,

A Perkins, then?

The surprising bit is that (as far as I can discover on the internet) that model of tractor was discontinued 20 years before your engine was built!

[pete harrison]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

A Perkins, then?

The surprising bit is that (as far as I can discover on the internet) that model of tractor was discontinued 20 years before your engine was built!

This engine is based on the Perkins D3.152, with I believe the final marine incarnation being the 3HD46 Mk2 (which my engine is). I have the receipt for the engine in my boat, dated September 1995, and the accompanying 3HD46 Mk2 User Handbook is copyrighted 1988. Interestingly the oil change interval is quoted as 250 hours or 4 months.

 

My understanding is that the Massey Ferguson 135 tractor is still desirable due to the robustness of its engine, this engine being the AD3.152 where the A means automotive (i.e. different mountings, different exhaust manifold e.t.c.

Edited May 29, 2019 by pete harrison

[Sea Dog]

15 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

It's a tough old new engine, so I'd not worry.  Start it from cold with about 3 seconds on the glowplugs and then rev the hell out of it out of gear - rated peak power on the Beta 43 is at 2800 rpm, so bounce it up to 3000 rpm if the throttle will let you get that far (it probably won't!) and watch the owner's face while you do it.  If they cringe when you do, offer less ... if they nod and smile because you know what you are doing, offer them fair price.

I never rev any of my engines to half revs, never mind anywhere near a red line, until fully warmed through. My Beta 43 oil is changed regularly in line with the manufacturer's annual or 250 hour intervals and I'm confident she's sweet as a nut, but I would neither nod nor smile if a prospective buyer tried that! 

 

If the OP is minded to try it, I hope he asks first or he may wake up with a crowd around him! 

 

[Paringa]

Yes i was thinking that when i read it too Sea Dog...

 

I am interested to know what The Biscuits reasoning is behind this test on a cold engine and what it would show as a result.

[dmr]

Another good easy test of engine health is to take the oil filler cap whilst the engine is warmed up and running. Feeling the air pulsations (and looking for "smoke") can give a good indication of blowby and bore wear, but this only works if you have some idea of what is good and bad for that engine. A quick sniff is an easier test, a smell of hot engine oil is good, a smell of exhaust gas or burnt oil is not so good.

 

..................Dave

[Bee]

Don't rev the hell out of anything unless the police or mafia are chasing you. Even then warm the engine up before you do it or bits of engine will get damaged and they will catch you.

[dmr]

7 minutes ago, Bee said:

Don't rev the hell out of anything unless the police or mafia are chasing you. Even then warm the engine up before you do it or bits of engine will get damaged and they will catch you.

Yes, I was revving the engine and going too fast on the Bridgewater and the police caught me and flagged me down. Luckily it turned out that the uniformed officer was in fact the RSPCA but she still boarded our boat and to punish us for speeding demanded that we spend the next hour trying to rescue a wounded goose.

 

..............Dave

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

I never rev any of my engines to half revs, never mind anywhere near a red line, until fully warmed through. My Beta 43 oil is changed regularly in line with the manufacturer's annual or 250 hour intervals and I'm confident she's sweet as a nut, but I would neither nod nor smile if a prospective buyer tried that! 

 

If the OP is minded to try it, I hope he asks first or he may wake up with a crowd around him! 

 

Yes, I rather wondered whether the suggestion was a wind-up to get the OP assaulted by the vendor. I cannot see what the 'test' is designed to demonstrate, a cold engine or more to the point and engine with cold oil being revved like that will be putting a whole lot of wear on a whole lot of components. Would I be happy if a potential buyer did that to my engine? not in the least, in fact I'd tend to switch the ignition off and stop the engine if they tried it and probably tell them to bog off, and I'm more than content with the current workings of my engine. One of the minor issues with my engine is that on start up, one of the drive belts slips for about 15 - 20 seconds before biting and not slipping again no matter how long you run the engine for. To fully rev the engine on start up would probably have that drive belt smoking. It has been slipping like that for a couple of years since I tightened it and managed to stop the squeal only for the water pump bearing to break up because it was too tight. Now I can happily live with a slipping belt that I can easily change if it fails rather than risk another wrecked water pump which is a PITA to replace.

[mrsmelly]

10 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Yes, I rather wondered whether the suggestion was a wind-up to get the OP assaulted by the vendor. I cannot see what the 'test' is designed to demonstrate, a cold engine or more to the point and engine with cold oil being revved like that will be putting a whole lot of wear on a whole lot of components. Would I be happy if a potential buyer did that to my engine? not in the least, in fact I'd tend to switch the ignition off and stop the engine if they tried it and probably tell them to bog off, and I'm more than content with the current workings of my engine. One of the minor issues with my engine is that on start up, one of the drive belts slips for about 15 - 20 seconds before biting and not slipping again no matter how long you run the engine for. To fully rev the engine on start up would probably have that drive belt smoking. It has been slipping like that for a couple of years since I tightened it and managed to stop the squeal only for the water pump bearing to break up because it was too tight. Now I can happily live with a slipping belt that I can easily change if it fails rather than risk another wrecked water pump which is a PITA to replace.

Not teaching you how to suck eggs but does that not mean you have the wrong profile belt fitted? and its slipping at the bottom of the pulley?

[cuthound]

17 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

It's a plant engine.  They get chucked in cement mixers and generators and ignored for years on end and thousands of hours of hard work, which is good for them.

 

Make an offer on it if you like it subject to an oil analysis on the engine.  Take a little bit of the engine oil out of the engine and send it off to be tested if you are worried about it.

 

The other thinking is that you can replace the engine for about 5 grand if it's totally shot, without changing the beds or gearbox or shafts (though you probably should put new engine mounts in while the engine is out!) so just knock 5 grand off your offer and cross your fingers.

 

It's a tough old new engine, so I'd not worry.  Start it from cold with about 3 seconds on the glowplugs and then rev the hell out of it out of gear - rated peak power on the Beta 43 is at 2800 rpm, so bounce it up to 3000 rpm if the throttle will let you get that far (it probably won't!) and watch the owner's face while you do it.  If they cringe when you do, offer less ... if they nod and smile because you know what you are doing, offer them fair price.

 

The oil analysis is a good idea, and will identify all sorts of potential issues, bearing wear, bore wear, oil acidity and combustion partivcle concemtrstion amongst other things.

 

Revving a cold engine to the red line isn't,  it won't prove anything and will result in excess wear. 90% of engine wear takes place whilst it is warming up. It is for this reason that standby generators have electric heaters fitted into the cooling circuit, so that they can start and have full load applied without causing excessive wear.

Edited May 29, 2019 by cuthound
To unmangle the effects of autocorrect.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Not teaching you how to suck eggs but does that not mean you have the wrong profile belt fitted? and its slipping at the bottom of the pulley?

I've tried a variety of belts, it is one of those multi-V types and nothing seems to stop it. Tightening it did, but then the water pump bearing broke. It doesn't slip at all at any other time but start-up whatever I may be doing with the engine, hard revving, tickover, whatever. I've decided that I can live with a 15 second whine on start up if there are no other symptoms.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

Feeling the air pulsations (and looking for "smoke") can give a good indication of blowby and bore wear, but this only works if you have some idea of what is good and bad for that engine.

 

I'd imagine this is only of much use on engines with an even number of cylinders, as odd numbers require a cylinder-capacity of air to be ejected or compressed on every revolution. 

 

My K1 huffs and chuffs massively through the vented oil filler cap but my K2 moves no air through it at all, by way of illustration.